Topic: Ford air conditioning '65 C code coupe

[MattDoscher]

Good evening,

I have a few questions about Ford's a/c system originally installed in a '65 C code Dearborn coupe w/ a production date of approx. Jan '65.  I currently have a Classic Autoair daily driver system in my coupe and I want to change out the compressor and underdash unit to original Ford units. 

my questions are:

1. How do I know which compressor is correct for my particular coupe?  Are there ID numbers on the compressor I should look for?
2. The '65 underdash unit had the bright face plate compared to the black camera case face plate on the '66 correct?
3. Did the C code 289 w/ a/c also have a fan clutch?  I currently have the 5 blade fan but no fan clutch.  Should I have a fan clutch?
4. If I were to install a used compressor and underdash unit is it possible to run the modern 134A freon?

thanks,

Matt

[J_Speegle]

Guess the first question needs to be - Dealer or factory installed AC?

Believe running the new stuff requires different seals but not sure what other parts will not work.  Never modified one of these systems

[bryancobb]

Matt, 
I went down this path a few years ago and I will try to remember what I learned and what I did.
First word of advice...Get the Mannel book  (http://www.amazon.com/Mustang-Ford-Small-Block-1962-1969/dp/B003SFV9JU) because that has everything you need to know to do it exactly as the assembly line did.

If I remember right, all assembly line AC cars had fan-clutches.  The dealer installed kits from Form Ford had a no-clutch 5-blade fan.


Here's the things that must be absolutely correct for it to fit and all the pulleys line up.
* Correct front timing cover
* Correct water pump
* Correct water pump pulley
* Correct PS pump (if equipped)
* Correct PS pump pulley
* Correct PS Pump bracket
* Correct Heads
* Correct AC Compressor (most likely cast iron Tecumseh not aluminum York)
* Correct AC Compressor base bracket
* Correct AC Compressor "hockey-stick" bracket
* Correct tube brace from AC Compressor to Intake Manifold
* Correct AC Clutch
* Correct alternator pulley
* Correct Crankshaft pulley
* Correct Thermactor (if equipped)
* Correct Thermactor brackets (if equipped)
* Correct Thermactor pulley (if equipped)
* Correct Hot-Idle Compesator and hoses
* Correct Idler Pulley and Bracket
* Correct Hardware
* Correct Fan
* Correct Fan Clutch
* Correct Length Fan/Clutch Shaft
* Correct Radiator
* Correct Fan Shroud
* Correct Fan Shroud "Z-Brackets"

There are so many different setups that are possible, that for YOUR car to be correct, the Mannel book is almost required.  It has all the applicable dates/part numbers/pictures, etc.

The new freon runs at a higher pressure.  It CAN be done with the old compressors but the system was engineered for lower pressure which means it works best with old R-12.  I chose to stay with R-12.

Here's a dataplate similar to the one you will be looking for on the compressor but with a date stamp, appropriate for your car.  (This one was a 1969)

[MattDoscher]

Jeff, I have no clue if my '65 originally had a/c or not; do not know if it was factory or dealer.  When I bought my '65 it did not have a/c but did have the holes already in the radiator support and firewall.  Also the drivers door had been replaced at somepoint prior to me buying it and whoever did this did not transfer the original data plate to the replacement door.

Bryan, thanks for your input.  That's a ton of items that I also need to look for!  I just wonder if it's easier just to remove my current daily driver system and just deal w/ the holes in the radiator support and firewall.  I'm competing for an AACA junior and senior award and I know this daily driver a/c system is going to hurt me if I were to keep it which is why I was wanting the original Ford items, but I don't know if I want to go down this road and have to possibly replace the waterpump, front timing cover, etc.

[bryancobb]

Matt, the water pump only needs to be the correct length to the fan flange to make the pulley sheaves line up correctly.

The earlier engines had an aluminum water pump that did not have a seal plate on the back so the timing cover was matched to that type pump and acted to create a chamber for the impeller.  The later engines like my 66 had a cast iron pump with a steel plate on the back that created the chamber.  The timing cover didn't have water in the front of it.

I can remember several people having length issues and never could get things to line up.

I can offer a clue to the question of whether or not your car was definitely equipped with AC on the assembly line or at the dealer.
1)  The location and method of creation of the 2 holes where the condenser hoses go through the core support

If done on the assembly-line, these two holes are PUNCHED with tooling and not DRILLED using a hole-saw.  It's easy to tell the difference because a punch and die deforms the steel in the direction it is being punched.  A hole saw does not.  Dealers used a hole-saw.

On 65 and 66 years, there's no way to tell if your car truthfully came with AC or not unless you are lucky and have found the original build sheet.

[MattDoscher]

Thanks again Bryan.  I appreciate your responses.  Everything lines up great right now w/ my current system but I know once I start compiling all the parts and pieces and brackets and pulleys that I'll run into something needing more work and I don't want to open up a can of worms so to speak!  I've decided to just remove my current system.  I'm also going to be switching from a 4V to a 2V intake system on my 289 in order to match my C code car.  I've had a 4V intake on it this whole time albeit w/ an aftermarket Offy manifold.  I have to get a correct manifold anyway if I'm going to compete in AACA judging so might as well go back to the original C code set up.

[J_Speegle]

First Bryan have given you allot of good information to consider as you move forward - Thanks Bryan

Jeff, I have no clue if my '65 originally had a/c or not; do not know if it was factory or dealer.

Since no ford documents are available you are current left to choose or determine which style you reproduce. But you want to make sure, which ever direction you go, that all the parts match since dealer installed used some different pieces than factory.

When I bought my '65 it did not have a/c but did have the holes already in the radiator support and firewall.

I thing the physical details of what you have now (holes in the firewall, radiator support, firewall pad and various other holes) may help you choose the system you want to replace it with - if any of them match the original patterns for you cars build period. Repairing or relocating any of these will take some work

[MattDoscher]

Thanks Jeff.

[rocket289k]

Hi Matt,

My '65 GT has a factory AC installed. As part of the restoration, I fully rebuilt the AC system. I'm running 134a with zero issues. The AC blows nice and cold. However, as already noted R12 runs "cooler". In order to compensate I installed a 6 row condenser from Classic Auto Air to ensure that the 134a freon would have ample opportunity to bled its heat. Even in upper 90 degree weather the system performs great.

R12 is just too expensive and too much of a pain to obtain. Given how well my system has performed I would never consider using anything but R134a.

PS - I would recommend using the secondary non-adjustable idler pulley too. It was a TSB item installed at dealers starting in 1967. It does a great job of eliminating the belt slap that causes early Mustang AC systems have that causes a rumbling noise.

Regards,

Ron

[MattDoscher]

Thanks Ron, glad to hear your original a/c system is doing so well!  I've decided to get rid of my current aftermarket system and not try and obtain all the necessary parts and pieces for an original system.

Matt

[J_Speegle]

PS - I would recommend using the secondary non-adjustable idler pulley too. It was a TSB item installed at dealers starting in 1967. It does a great job of eliminating the belt slap that causes early Mustang AC systems have that causes a rumbling noise.

IF your not planning on showing the car

[rocket289k]

IF your not planning on showing the car

Hi Jeff - since it's a valid dealer installed item, identified in a Ford TSB to correct an issue with excessive noise and belt slap why would it be an issue?

Ron

[J_Speegle]

Hi Jeff - since it's a valid dealer installed item, identified in a Ford TSB to correct an issue with excessive noise and belt slap why would it be an issue?

Since in this example the TSB article and the modification would have been made in 67 rather than when the car was new the part could not have been on the car originally. Many TSB are written to address issues if owners complain and come back in with their car rather than a campaign or recall. Very different processes.   Some organizations have allowed recalls (different than service issues) related to safety to be ignored or if the owner can prove that they car was still not sold at the time of the recall. Not always an easy thing to do.

IMHO these modifications do not represent the true spirit of restoring these cars to the way they were delivered - our identified goal

[rocket289k]

Since in this example the TSB and the modification would have been made in 67 rather than when the car was new the part could not have been on the car originally. Many TSB are written to address issues if owners complain and come back in with their car rather than a campaign or recall. Very different processes.   Some organizations have allowed recalls (different than service issues) related to safety to be ignored or if the owner can prove that they car was still not sold at the time of the recall. Not always an easy thing to do.

IMHO these modifications do not represent the true spirit of restoring these cars to the way they were delivered - our identified goal

Thank for your explanation Jeff that makes perfectly good sense and I don't disagree. However, back to your original comment about showing the car with that modification. Wouldn't that depend on what judging class the vehicle was entered in?  I wouldn't expect to see that idler on a Thoroughbred class car. However, would a Concours Driven car expect to lose points for an dealer add on like that? 

Regards,

Ron

[MattDoscher]

IMHO these modifications do not represent the true spirit of restoring these cars to the way they were delivered - our identified goal

Which is exactly why I'm just going to remove this daily driver system all together.  Got the freon properly evacuated today now the fun of removing everything and getting it to look more original!