Topic: S-Code Value

[Stangly]

Not sure if I did this correctly but hopefully this is a link to the photos I took this last weekend.  I feel the car is in great shape but am questioning the engine hopefully the photos will shed some light.
http://s1216.photobucket.com/user/Phoward513/slideshow/69%20Mach%20I

[J_Speegle]

Not sure if I did this correctly but hopefully this is a link to the photos I took this last weekend.  I feel the car is in great shape but am questioning the engine hopefully the photos will shed some light.

Real hard to tell much about a 428CJ (if it is one or not) with it together and in a car. But the date code showing the 0 over the two dots E22 should be a confirmation that things have changed somewhat since the car was new. At least that is what I'm seeing in those two pictures of that area 

Not unusual as many of these cars were trashed and abused

[69cobrajetrugae2]

Jeff.  I believe the pics are from the 69 white S code Stangly looked at.

 You mentioned CJ and I was thinking the same thing when I noticed the plugged reactor ports and chromed valve covers. It could be a 72 or later smog FE engine with the 390.  I believe 72 and later 390 engines had 2 BB carbs, but I could be mistaken. The date code was illegible by the oil filter and there was no C6ME or other block number visible.  The manifold runner in front of the carb did appear to be the wide CJ type.

Stangly needed to pull all the numbers to get a good start on this. If the car has a CJ engine then that changes things a little on the car.

Date code on oil filter flange. Block numbers. Evidence of a windage tray. Carb number, distributor number, intake number and date code.  The CJ has 4 unused exhaust bolt holes per side if I remember correctly. There is an "N" between 2 and 3 plugs on CJ heads.

There are a lot of minor issues that could tame a true cobra jet engine in terms of performance.  However, even when my 428 CJ secondary's we're inoperative, the car still could outrun a 390.

The body of the car looked dry but accident damage is another area of concern which is hard to detect in some cases.  If the car was hit hard 40 years ago,  dealership body shop personnel back in the day we're seasoned professionals and did the work correctly, and of course had the correct Ford parts as well.

[69cobrajetrugae2]

When I appraise a mustang the first thing I do is look at the gaps and fitment.  If that looks good I gauge the paint, especially the rockers. Next I look for date codes on the panels. The appraisal process takes me about 8 hours.

 Jeff was extremely helpful during my last appraisal with regard to date codes on a 66 convertible. The odometer shows 15000 miles and after servicing the car and spending some time with it, I am 90% sure the mileage is original. The car had a terrible repaint and did not show well.  When I first laid eyes on the car the first thing I noticed was that the chrome around the wind wings, the rubber, and the window felt was perfect.  Dirty but perfect. The bushings in the window cranks were tight, the headlight switch has no slop, and the plastic bushings in the throttle linkage was all there. The suspension is original and the power steering and steering box is tight as a drum. The sector shaft screw has not been disturbed. The button fuel pump has the original straps on the fuel line from the frame fuel tube to the pump.

The engine trans and rear end are quiet and smooth as silk.  Like showroom fresh.

All the tags are present except the carb, and I am in the process of building a part and date correct carb.

The feed and return metal tubes for the choke heater attached to the exhaust manifold are there and in good shape. The autolight BF42 powertip plugs are tan and clean, must be the second set. I believe the original plugs had a star logo,  these have the "r' logo.

 The radiator is original with fomoco # C4ZE Y2 dated 3-66. The block drains came right out and the coolant was scale and debris free. I removed the t stat and reattached the housing and ran the engine for 10 minutes with the radiator petcock wide open and the block drains open adding water at the same rate. I ran the hose into the radiator for another 10 minutes with the engine off so that there would be no hot spots and was careful not to overpressure the radiator with the garden hose during the flushing process.

The more I look for the fatal flaw the more I find a wonderful original example of a 1966 mustang convertible. Thanks again Jeff.

[drummingrocks]

http://cosprings.craigslist.org/cto/4542752257.html

Interesting.  He wants 43K, there is a typo in the ad.  If he could send a 100 HD pics of everything, something like this might be worth a plane ticket.

+1, that looks like a much better car than the original one posted. 

[stangs-R-me]

I just looked through the complete slide show of this White '69 Mach 1.

I'm no big-block expert, so I can't even begin to help you identify what is really under that hood.   However I do see that there has been a lot of work done to this car with no thought on originality ... nothing that is not reverse-able.   Looks very solid and mostly original ... body & interior wise.   

As far as it's current "doggy performance", if you look at the driver's side pictures of the aftermarket Holley carb you will see that someone modded the accelerator bracket to work with this carb (pretty common).   The bracket is only mounted to the left rear carb stud and the reason why this car is such a "dog" is pretty obvious.   Because the bracket was not properly modified and secured, it has rotated clockwise on the mounting stud so FULL THROTTLE is only maybe a 3rd throttle !!   Fix this and I'm sure this engine will come alive and no longer feel like it would have it's doors blown off by a V6 SN-95 Mustang.

Doug

1st post ... I'm from the '69 Mustang forum and recently found this gem of a site.   Hopefully I'll find time to properly introduce myself sometime in the near future.   For now, here is a link to my photo album over on the '69 site ...
http://www.1969stang.com/gallery/stangs-R-me-Deluxe-GT-Hardtop

[stangs-R-me]

http://cosprings.craigslist.org/cto/4542752257.html

Interesting.  He wants 43K, there is a typo in the ad.  If he could send a 100 HD pics of everything, something like this might be worth a plane ticket.

That car looks like it could be more cobbled together than the OP's white Mach !!   

A couple of quick observations ...

The car has an A/C upper & lower dash in it and no A/C under the hood.   Owner clams it to be a DRAG PACK car and I did not think you could get A/C with this option.   It also does not have a TACH DASH which I thought DID come std. with the DRAG PACK option.

As I stated in my last post about the white car, I'm no big block expert ... so I'd think those that ARE would spot other issues on this supposedly SCJ D-P car.

Doug

[drummingrocks]

Whoa, hang on, disregard my earlier comment.  I missed the bit about there being a typo in the ad.  There's a LOT of difference between paying $34k and $43k for that blue Mach.  At $34k, you could probably come out if you had to fix a few things.  At $43k, it'd better be a pretty nice/correct car.

[69cobrajetrugae2]

I agree that the blue SCJ had some serious issues based on the few pictures available. As you stated, 10K can forgive a lot of sins.

I am not sure that all SCJ came with a tach.  At the time, a SUN column mounted tach was the top choice and I think you could get the supers "base" with no options.

There is an army of car buyers that pounce on a honest car that has not been molested.  Sometimes however, the seller is unavailable for a number of reasons.  Chief among them is the wife wants the car sold, baby, bills, divorce and so forth, and the husband is dragging his feet, quite understandably so.  If you can get her on the phone then you can be first in line to see it and make a deal if the car stands up.   

[Stangly]

Well I spoke with the seller today about the white S-Code.  The asking price is $32K he told me his bottom line was $29K.  I explained that not much of the engine compartment was original but the car was very nice.  I said the most I would be willing to pay would be $18K.  He said he was firm on the price and would probably keep the car.  I explained that I would need to stick at at minimum $10K into the engine compartment to get it original and that we were to far apart.  He who hawd a bit about how nice the car was.  Then there was a long pause and the wife card came up and for a limited time he would take $23K.  Just wanted to bounce this off the forum and see how it sticks.

Thanks for all the input everybody,

[69cobrajetrugae2]

Look at the pics under zoom, especially the undercarriage. I don't know if it is a shadow, but a few things seem amiss.

Let us know what you can make out and I will tell you what I see as potential issues.

[stangs-R-me]

That car looks like it could be more cobbled together than the OP's white Mach !!   

A couple of quick observations ...

The car has an A/C upper & lower dash in it and no A/C under the hood.   Owner clams it to be a DRAG PACK car and I did not think you could get A/C with this option.   It also does not have a TACH DASH which I thought DID come std. with the DRAG PACK option.

As I stated in my last post about the white car, I'm no big block expert ... so I'd think those that ARE would spot other issues on this supposedly SCJ D-P car.

Doug

I've attached pics of the 1969 Ford Dealer "DRAG-PACK" and "SHAKER" flyer that a fellow '69 owner gave me a photo copy of a few years back which is where I had read about the standard Tach on 428 cars.   

As many of you probably know, the Drag-Pack option was not available until later in '69 production and the Shaker is only shown as an option for the 428 in the Illustrated Facts Book.   In this flyer, it shows that the Shaker is now available on all 351 and 390 engines ... $45.39 MSRP for 351 2V or 4V and $84.25 for the 390 4V.

As far as the DRAG-PACK, it was available with any 428 equipped Fairlane or Mustang, but only without A/C.

At the bottom of the "SHAKER" page, it states the Tachometer came STANDARD with 4-Speed on both 390 & 428 cars and was optional with Auto.

So, if this blue 428 car originally came w/ A/C (as the upper & lower dash show), it can't be an original DRAG-PACK car.   If the dash is not original (why would someone got to the trouble to swap out the dash and not add the A/C under the hood ??), then it could have the Drag-Pack option and not have a Tach since it is an Automatic.

Doug   

[drummingrocks]

I looked at the pictures again, and at $23k, it's really hard to say.  In one way, I'd say it's worth it; I had a friend here in NE Georgia sell a driver-quality 351 '69 Mach for $25k just a few weeks ago.  The body on the car you're looking at looks pretty nice and original.  It's clear that the car has had a "rattle-can restoration" on the engine bay (wiring harness and motor mounts have overspray).  But what gets me too is all of the little stuff.  The door ajar switches have been painted over.  The interior is serviceable, but is missing the console (and that's not cheap to replace).  The quickie paint job turns me off the most, and it makes me wonder what else has been skimped on in the past when work was done.

What's your ultimate goal for this car?  You could probably spend $10-15k more and have a much better car to start with if you're going for a concours restoration.  Something else to think about is the rarity of the car; it's  a well-optioned car, but it's not super rare or optioned out.  If you're going to dump $20k in a restoration, is this the car that will get you your money back when it comes time to sell it?  Just something to think about.  And I don't mean to bust your chops--I'm in the same boat with the '69 Mach I have now.  It's a garden variety 351W/auto car, and I've got enough in restoring it that I probably could've bought a big-block car.  If you're doing it for fun, then that's one thing, but if you're doing it to make money, I don't see all that much profit on this car even at $23k.  The 390 is desirable over the 351W, but most people with money to spend are going to skip straight to a 428 car. 

[69cobrajetrugae2]

The torque box appears to have been pulled down away from the frame on one pic and there is a buckle on the rear frame rail on another pic.  All the mickey mouse repair and maintenance work performed on the car is grossly substandard.  The issue is that internal hard parts and wiring work might have been done by the same genius. If the pics are inaccurate, and digital pics can be deceiving, and the car has not been hit, and it is not full of filler on the panels, it is a 15K driver.  I would pay that if I was in the area, after all, it is a big block car. 

[Stangly]

I want to thank everybody for all the great input.  Many people have pointed out several things wrong with this car for the price the seller is asking.  I have decided to pass on this purchase and plan to educate myself about the FE engines.  I have come across two rust free cars in the last seven years in my part of the country ND, and have bought one.  I only paid $3250 for it so the investment was minimal.  This is a major purchase and for this kind of money I want to make sure I know what I'm getting.  This post has giving me a much greater knowledge of big block cars than I had before.  It has become evident that I have a lot more homework to do before such a purchase can be made.  Thanks again to everybody for your time and great level of detail.

One last question and we put this post to bed, Is there a book out there on big blocks similar to Bob Mannels book on small blocks that I could study.

David,