Topic: VIN on Engine and Transmission

[Greg45]

I recently discovered an unusual situation with the VIN on my June 65 2+2 K code GT.  I verified a couple of years ago that the VIN was on the transmission and the engine.  Since I purchased the car new and actually picked it up as it was unloaded from the rail transport, I know it is original.

What I recently noticed is that the VIN on the drivetrain does not match the VIN on the chassis.  I'm wondering if there is a recommended way to have this verified or certified or ?? so my daughter won't have a hassle if she ever decides to show it or sell it.  The VIN on the door tag is 5F07K754903, fender is 5F09K754903 so they even had trouble keeping those the same.  The fender is obviously wrong.  The VIN on the engine and transmission is 5F07K757770.

I had to wait close to six months for delivery so I'm guessing they used what was sitting around in Dearborn.  Am I concerned about something that is basically irrelevant?

[krelboyne]

Classic miss-stamp by Ford on the fender apron.

I wonder if your stamped engine and transmission got mistakenly installed in the other car? Criss-cross.

[jwc66k]

The VIN on the door tag is 5F07K754903, fender is 5F09K754903 so they even had trouble keeping those the same.  The fender is obviously wrong.  The VIN on the engine and transmission is 5F07K757770.

Somebody did something with your VIN as it is entered in the "Mustang Production Guide" as 5F09K754903 and in the 4th edition of "The 289 High Performance Mustang" as 5F09K754903 residing in Iowa. No other info is entered, body type, exterior, interior, DSO etc. 5F07K757770 is not entered.
You do need to review your statement about fender vs door data plate error. Body style 09 in the VIN is for a fastback. Also, a Fastback GT does not have the "2 +2" designation on the fender, the GT badge is located there, and no where else is "2 + 2" used.
Jim

[Greg45]

Somebody did something with your VIN as it is entered in the "Mustang Production Guide" as 5F09K754903 and in the 4th edition of "The 289 High Performance Mustang" as 5F09K754903 residing in Iowa. No other info is entered, body type, exterior, interior, DSO etc. 5F07K757770 is not entered.
You do need to review your statement about fender vs door data plate error. Body style 09 in the VIN is for a fastback. Also, a Fastback GT does not have the "2 +2" designation on the fender, the GT badge is located there, and no where else is "2 + 2" used.
Jim

I have no idea who entered the information that was used in the "Mustang Production Guide".  I tend to avoid posting information on Internet sites.  My car is definitely a fastback and it does not say 2+2.  I have always called it a 2+2 for obviously no good reason.

I also posted the numbers incorrectly (sorry) for the door tag and fender.  Door tag is 5F09K and the 5F07K is on the fender, motor and transmission.  I guess if one is going to be correct, the door tag is the one you would want.

In your opinion, should I even care that the numbers on the Engine and Transmission do not match the Vehicle VIN?  Would this effect the value?

[rocket289k]

I have no idea who entered the information that was used in the "Mustang Production Guide".  I tend to avoid posting information on Internet sites.  My car is definitely a fastback and it does not say 2+2.  I have always called it a 2+2 for obviously no good reason.

I also posted the numbers incorrectly (sorry) for the door tag and fender.  Door tag is 5F09K and the 5F07K is on the fender, motor and transmission.  I guess if one is going to be correct, the door tag is the one you would want.

In your opinion, should I even care that the numbers on the Engine and Transmission do not match the Vehicle VIN?  Would this effect the value?

All '65 Mustangs (GT or not) have the VIN stamped in 3 places (the door data plate, the driver's side fender apron (visible) and the passenger side fender apron (hidden by the fender - you'd need to remove the passenger fender for it to be visible).  All 3 of the VINs in those locations should match.  In the case of a K-code the VIN was also stamped into the engine block and the transmission in addition to the 3 places already mentioned.  As a result, a K code '65 Mustang would have a matching VIN stamping in all 5 of those locations and they all should match. 

Regarding the question of non-matching VINs impacting the value of the car it will complicate things.  The fact that the 5 VINs are non-matching this will be a "red flag" and cause any future buyer to have concerns.  However, given you are the original owner of the car you may be in a position to provide as much documentation as possible to offset this concerns.

Sample Documentation

- Any paperwork associated with the original purchase of the car (Original Dealer Invoice, Original "Owner's Warranty Card" that came with the car when new, Window Sticker)
- Any old pictures with you of the car when brand new
- Any invoices / service records detailing the maintenance of the car

However, for someone that wants a "true matching numbers" K-code car this will reduce the value of the car (regardless of any explanation of why the numbers do not match).  I hope this helps.

Regards,

Ron

[J_Speegle]

I had to wait close to six months for delivery so I'm guessing they used what was sitting around in Dearborn...........

Though often used as an excuse IMHO I don't think that is the reason or what happened especially something connected with warranty and vehicle thief connotations

Is the door tag or an original?  Its common to see reproduction here where owners wanted to change the original exterior color or add a deluxe interior.

Have seen a fair share of mis-stamps where the guy got the body code wrong but with the VIN on the engine, trans and body don't match it causes big problems often in this country. I would think it was allot easier to understand that the original engine is now gone and a replacement engine and trans were found from a car built at the same plant and about the same time as your car. Real real common for high performance cars to no longer have their original engines - unfortunate by product of their early lives and one of the reasons to have cars full inspected before they are purchased.

The replacement engine I put in my 69 CJ  was about 1000 numbers off from its original vin so it does happen.

[jwc66k]

All '65 Mustangs (GT or not) have the VIN stamped in 3 places (the door data plate, the driver's side fender apron (visible) and the passenger side fender apron (hidden by the fender - you'd need to remove the passenger fender for it to be visible).  All 3 of the VINs in those locations should match.  In the case of a K-code the VIN was also stamped into the engine block and the transmission in addition to the 3 places already mentioned.  As a result, a K code '65 Mustang would have a matching VIN stamping in all 5 of those locations and they all should match. 

Actually four places, one additional hidden VIN is stamped on the driver's side fender apron, opposite the RH side, so add one to all the locations you mention. The only one that counts is the VIN on the title. 
The VIN listing in "The Mustang Production Guide" was entered before 1994 when the book was first published. Not too much Internet stuff back then. That entry was generated from a state's motor vehicle data base, which is why it has no other information. The State entry is from the High Performance book which is also before the full impact of the net. Somehow Tony Gregory got the state info from Haskell or Smart.
Jim

[Greg45]

Though often used as an excuse IMHO I don't think that is the reason or what happened especially something connected with warranty and vehicle thief connotations

Is the door tag or an original?  Its common to see reproduction here where owners wanted to change the original exterior color or add a deluxe interior.

Have seen a fair share of mis-stamps where the guy got the body code wrong but with the VIN on the engine, trans and body don't match it causes big problems often in this country. I would think it was allot easier to understand that the original engine is now gone and a replacement engine and trans were found from a car built at the same plant and about the same time as your car. Real real common for high performance cars to no longer have their original engines - unfortunate by product of their early lives and one of the reasons to have cars full inspected before they are purchased.

The replacement engine I put in my 69 CJ  was about 1000 numbers off from its original vin so it does happen.

I'm confused.  You are saying the original engine and transmission could have been replaced in Dearborn before it was loaded on the freight car  and transported to Des Moines by rail?  That sounds a little far fetched although I guess anything could happen.  The build date matches the date I took delivery so the chassis wasn't just sitting around.  Remember, this car has always been in my possession and everything on the engine was exactly as it should be.  Of course, before I just rebuilt it, it  included the stuff I messed with back in the 60s.

The car has never been in an accident and the door, and the tag, are exactly as they were when I took delivery.  I have never loaned the car to anyone and the only drivers were my late wife and myself.

[Greg45]

I don't see any reason for me not to complete the entry in the Production Guide.  I didn't realize that my VIN was there.  Heck, I didn't even know that the Deluxe Interior was on the tag as rocket289k said.  I'll take a look tomorrow.

This is all very interesting!  Guess it's a good thing it isn't for sale.  Also a good thing it will probably never be in a Mustang Club show.

I think I will have a statement notarized stating that it is the way it was purchased new in 1965.  Could save my daughter a hassle some day. 

[rodster]

Very odd situation..... sounds like Ford put you between a rock and a hard place.  Not even sure how you will prove it is as delivered and if anyone would notarize a statement saying so.

Sounds like you should continue to enjoy the car and not worry about the value if you have no plans on selling after all these years. 

Sure would like so see some pictures of it!

[Greg45]

It was just suggested to me that it would be nice for my daughter to have something adding validity to the stated circumstances since she was not around yet when the car was purchased.  Having something notarized does not make it fact, it just means that I swore that the facts stated are true.

There are a few small things to still finish on the car.  Then a vacation.  I hope to have it outside and driven in April and then I can take some decent pictures.  And I'm sure I will enjoy the Kar this summer.

[Greg45]

Here is a picture of the engine before I started tearing it apart.  Also a couple of misc. parts pictures.  The picture of the body was when it came home.

http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/GregZ06/library/Mustang

PS:  The Cosworth and Swift are not related to the Mustang.

[67gtasanjose]

MAYBE there's other possibilities...You say it has always been in your possesion, but...has there ever been a possibility it spent the night at a dealership for any warranty repairs? Nearly 50 years ago is a really long time...This car has sat around here or there for months on end without driving it, viewing it or working on it. Just simply by you going away on vacation, another family member could have access to your car...It all begs another question: Why would somebody switch out with the same kind? This is all odd. Also, did I understand that the numbers found on the engine and trans are the same to each other AND that they are not listed in the K-code registry either? (that's just another odd note) This all leads me to think along the lines like Jeff is speaking about...just too many oddities in just one vehicle even though we are speaking to the original owner. Unfortunate though and should everything TRULY be as delivered, this would seem to be a real FIRST. 

[Greg45]

I never trusted dealerships.  That's why I didn't have a Pre-Delivery done on it.  They did an alignment once, and I stood there and watched them.  It was a great car and never needed any major work of any kind.  No way I would ever let a dealership have it overnight.   

I know that the car was delivered from the factory as it is now, but I have no way to prove it so I guess I will let it drop.  Thank you to everyone that gave insight and opinion.

[rodster]

Here is a picture of the engine before I started tearing it apart.  Also a couple of misc. parts pictures.  The picture of the body was when it came home.

http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/GregZ06/library/Mustang

PS:  The Cosworth and Swift are not related to the Mustang.

Wow, very nice looking car. 

If I owned it from new, I get it together and drive it. The fact that you are the original owner and the stories you have to tell are more valuable than matching numbers.