Topic: Early 65 San Jose Fastback Trap Door Surround Panel Rivets or Screws?

[livetoride60]

From another thread....continuing a discussion on trunk screw protectors....

5R09C1509xx  Trunk details
Again - details contained in these pictures apply to San Jose built fastbacks  at the same time as this car

Area below the rear window. Typical little or no coverage of exterior color. Notice (I did   that when they put the interior back together they used screws rather than rivets   and choose to move the screw protectors from the screws above to these screws. Nice original screw covers/protectors - just too bad they are in the wrong spots



Till next time

[livetoride60]

I'm not seeing the screws vs. rivets you mentioned however, and the screw covers seem to be in the same position as mine.  Picture below.  Can you clarify?

Oct 9, 1964 scheduled build date.

[livetoride60]

I'm with Rich on this one.  My Oct 64 SJ Fastback has screws and covers just like his picture.

Jeff mine is the same way as well.  I have screws all around with those protective covers...

Were the screws and covers a SJ plant thing?
My Oct 64 Dearborn fastback has rivits instead.

[livetoride60]

Where yours and the car in the pictures has your screw protectors installed are where they used rivets from the factory - so no reason to have them originally installed there and nothing (originally) was there to hold them in in place. Instead they were installed on the trunk end of the screws that held the interior trim to the body as a the sharp end of the screws stuck into the trunk area and produced a concern.

It appears that some prior owner did the same as as this one - used screws or small bolts in place of the rivets when they removed and reinstalled the inner panels

As a extra point the color of the screw protectors appear to have change/were different from 65 and 66 production






Not that I've experienced - the assembly manuals TSB and other documents as well as the unrestored cars I've seen from the period (before and after also) had rivets. Seen stove bolts and screws used by shops and owners - may have does the same back in the 70's myself 

Might be a good idea to start a new thread discussing these specific subject. Have plenty of fall 64 fastbacks it seem with the screw covers over the lower sections but all have been played with - at least not untouched But we might all discover something new - well maybe

[livetoride60]

Might be a good idea to start a new thread discussing these specific subject. Have plenty of fall 64 fastbacks it seem with the screw covers over the lower sections but all have been played with - at least not untouched But we might all discover something new - well maybe

Here you go.... 

As a extra point the color of the screw protectors appear to have change/were different from 65 and 66 production

So, if the protectors were not installed on the cars from the factory, how could they change color from 65 to 66?  Where they a Ford service part available just for this purpose, to cover screws resulting from an interior redo?

[jwc66k]

They are the same dimensions, but white, 375690-S, for 1965, and gray, 380865-S, for 1966. Both are shown on their respective body assembly manuals
Jim

[J_Speegle]

So, if the protectors were not installed on the cars from the factory, how could they change color from 65 to 66?  Where they a Ford service part available just for this purpose, to cover screws resulting from an interior redo?

They were installed on the 65-66 fastbacks at San Jose - just normally not on those screws.

As for colors it could be a change of supplier, a cost savings offered by the supplier or just a change the supplier made and Ford didn't car or specify a specific color.

I thing the challenge we have in this issues is finding original cars for examples and if there are screws already in the holes it makes it impossible to tell *(since the installation means the hole is changed) what was original - if it was a rivet- once the screw has been installed.

Did start checking pictures Mid Nov 64 - later have rivets. installed in the trap door surround.

[livetoride60]

They were installed on the 65-66 fastbacks at San Jose - just normally not on those screws.

Ah, I see now they are on different screws in your pictures.  Got it.

Did start checking pictures Mid Nov 64 - later have rivets. installed in the trap door surround.

Interested to see any pre-Nov 64 original pics of these if you find some.  Also, are pop-rivets a good substitute for factory rivets, or were they something special?

[J_Speegle]

Interested to see any pre-Nov 64 original pics of these if you find some.  Also, are pop-rivets a good substitute for factory rivets, or were they something special?

Have some will report - as mentioned its going to be impossible to determine (if there are screws in place) if screws were factory or not but the lack of ANY rivet examples from the period and plant will drive  the possibility if it comes out that way.

Do have a couple of local 65 San Jose Fastbacks from that period that are apart. Will get access and see if there are threads in those particular holes.


Pop rivets is basically what the factory used in two different sizes normally

[C5ZZ]

Also, are pop-rivets a good substitute for factory rivets, or were they something special?

It's been a while since I installed mine (Oct 64 Dearborn) with rivits but I seem to remember
finding evidence of a special rivit that had a larger head, was able to find some locally at a
auto body/paint store that looked to be close to what was used.

[C5ZZ]

Here are a few pictures of the rivits I used on mine.

[PraireBronze]

From the title, I'm guessing that this thread is looking for comments as to whether our cars came with rivets or screws.  I bought my Oct 64 SJ fastback in 1979.  It has always had all screws around the trap door.  No rivets at all.  There is no way a rivet would fit through the screw holes, so I'm 100% sure it never had any rivets.  It also has 3 screw covers on each side and none along the top.  One could have fallen off.


edit: Scheduled build date 02K, October 2, 1964

[jwc66k]

Per the 1965 and 1966 Body Assembly Manuals, the 65 rivet was 380098-S, 7 required, which translates to a 3/16 nominal dia "Pop rivet", 0.450 body L, 0.375 dia head, 0.188-0.250 grip range and had a steel mandrel. The 66 versions used 380334-S, 5 required, all dimensions the same as 380098-S but it used an aluminum mandrel. The rivet used in the two upper corners was 380335-S that had a longer grip range, 0.251-0.375, but was the same as 380334-S.
I assume that there were customer complaints about getting snagged on the screws holding the fixed panels to the trap door frame so Ford went to a rivet. The same snag scenario probably applied to the five screws for the trim panel above the door so the screw protectors (375690-S and 380865-S) were used. The change from steel to aluminum mandrels is probably because the aluminum mandrels were easier to install, or a different vendor. The longer rivet was used to accommodate two panels to the frame at the corners. My 65 San Jose Fastback uses rivets, all the 66 Fastbacks I've worked on use rivets. I found both correct size Pop rivets, including the aluminum mandrel, for 66 use in a local hardware store, Orchard Supply, but that was years ago (their selection has deteriorated). I have some odd size steel mandrel Pop rivets in a 2 pound coffee can but haven't got around to sorting them. The sizes that Ford used seem to be industry standards.
Jim

[J_Speegle]

............There is no way a rivet would fit through the screw holes, s.....

Care to elaborate?   I've often replaced screws and or bolts used there with rivets so I'm trying to picture what you've seen and the lower rivet shafts aren't that wide

[livetoride60]

Great specs on the rivets Jim.

Another observation...I looked at my car and there are only 5 trim screws above the trapdoor where these protectors would originally be installed if rivets were used around the door, yet like PrairieBronze and other cars I have 7 protectors around the door because there are seven screws.  In the examples the 7 always seem to be a consistent color or similarly aged too.  If these were added later, I would think we'd see some examples where 2 protectors would look newer in addition to the original 5 which would often be reused.

Also with all the different shops, owners, etc who would redo the interior on these, I would think there would be much more inconsistency in these protectors...I.e. there vs not there, 5 old 2 new looking, etc.

..... but the lack of ANY rivet examples from the period and plant will drive  the possibility if it comes out that way.

Agreed.  More evidence is needed of course, but I think if we find more & more pre Nov 64 San Jose examples with 7 matching protectors, and no rivets, it would lend credence to a period where screws were used from the factory.  Of course the Fastback only came out in Sep 64, so would be a short period