Topic: Oct 64 San Jose Front end paint order & colors

[livetoride60]

Hi - looking to confirm the paint order and colors on an Oct 64 SJ K-code fastback, mainly from the firewall forward since that's what I'm working on right now.  I've found a couple threads on Dearborn paint order, lots on SJ cars from 67-70, and some on front end / floor pans for SJ cars around my time period, but not finding exactly what I'm looking for.

As I strip the firewall, it's looking like the order is:

- base coat is red oxide primer, sometimes very light almost pinkish,
- then a grayish coat (maybe)
- then body color (turquoise) overspray,
- then black
- then spider-web spray adhesive (?)

Pictures attached.  There is some body color overspray on the inner fenders by the firewall, but seems to disappear as I move towards the front of the car, which would be logical.   There is still bright red oxide visible from underneath, i.e. on the bottom of the strut rod supports & frame rails, although it's under the aftermarket undercoating.  Also looks like red oxide followed by black on the tops of the inner fenders.  See pics.

So questions:
1) do I have the paint order & colors correct for the engine compartment?  (firewall, interior of the inner fenders, and engine-side of radiator support) 
2) should the order always be the same or change as I move to the front of the car, i.e. body color & gray coat disappear?

Pic 1 - Top of right inner fender
Pic 2 - right-rear inner fender
Pic 3 - firewall above heater
Pic 4 - firewall heater hose holes
Pic 5 - Bottom of left shock tower reinforcement

Some references:

SJ Discussion:
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=337.0
Dearborn order: 
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=4125.0

[livetoride60]

Also, the "outside" of the inner fenders were covered with thick aftermarket undercoating.  As I remove the undercoating, I'm finding what looks like black with turquoise and sometimes even red oxide overspray.  The car has been repainted once, so may be from that.  However, my "assumption" so far is anything under the undercoating is original.  Pics below.

So question:
3) Would the order of paint be the same on outside (wheel sides) of inner fenders?  I thought the black was applied after the body color & red oxide, which would contradict finding body color & red oxide overspray on top of the black.

If this is already in a thread somewhere, I apologize and please point me to it.

Thanks,
Rich

Pic 6 - outside of right inner fender, close up - black with turquoise overspray & small dots of red oxide
Pic 7 - outside of left inner fender, close up around hood hinge holes - turquoise overspray under black undercoating

[J_Speegle]

Again - a specific plant and time frame response for others reading this


Let me try it this way rather than going point by point through your two posts

As I understand it and other examples have supported

The body was primered From below. this produced overspray up the firewall and along the front frame rails. At the same or next station the exterior was primed. This was to seal the metal and provide a base for all other coats to come

Next a coat of gray primer (a primer surfacer) was applied to the exterior (overspray into the rear wheel wells and lightly (normally ) on the front engine house. 

Body color was applied - typically stopping at the top of the firewall and inner fenders at about the same point. No reason to waste product considering it was going to be covered anyway. Every once in a while it appears that a fill in or new guy got to paint and you'll find color further forward (like we see on Dearborn cars) but this is unusual and not typical IMHO.

Over the engine compartment from the cowl to firewall pinch weld down the firewall, around all the surfaces visible in a bare engine compartment and from rear splash shield attachment point to the other side attachment point was painted black also. This of course produced paint application on anything hanging down and overspray beyond that.


Either at the same station or the one before or after the pinch weld black out was applied.


Firewall holes, brackets, and pass throughs were sealed once all attaching parts were attached to the firewall except for the engine ground - it was attached to the engine and connected later.


When the car was completely assembled but before the tires and wheels installed the front wheel wells were sprayed with sound deadener. There were locations that were typical and covered on just about every car. Then there are examples where additional surfaces were covered. The amount of "additional" sound deadener does not appear to correlate with where the cars were being shipped to nor options. Most likely a difference in worker at that station that day/period or moment or amount of time the worker had to apply it

When looking at a car you always need to consider that often owners added undercoating (different from sound deadener) to their cars. Cleaning off of sound deadener & undercoating often removes other layers of paint with it.

Any cleaning will remove some overspray so what ever your seeing IMHO is always nicer, and has less overspray than it originally did.

Be carfull when removing factory sound deadener since it likely contains a good percentage of asbestos.

Lastly (for this post) factory sound deadener appears to change color as its exposed to the elements and sun. Its pretty easy to find examples of what looks to be pure white factory sound deadener. Just the reaction of dark colors and asbestos to strong sun lite over a period of time


Hope this helps

[livetoride60]

Body color was applied - typically stopping at the top of the firewall and inner fenders at about the same point. No reason to waste product considering it was going to be covered anyway. Every once in a while it appears that a fill in or new guy got to paint and you'll find color further forward (like we see on Dearborn cars) but this is unusual and not typical IMHO.

Over the engine compartment from the cowl to firewall pinch weld down the firewall, around all the surfaces visible in a bare engine compartment and from rear splash shield attachment point to the other side attachment point was painted black also. This of course produced paint application on anything hanging down and overspray beyond that.

Thanks Jeff for the great info.  So per the above quote, I'm assuming black was applied to the engine compartment inside and outside (wheel sides), from the firewall forward after the body color.  However, I am pretty sure I am finding original body color overspray on the outside of the inner fenders on both sides of the car.  This is Turquoise color over a black or possibly slop color.  This is under the aftermarket undercoating. 

I tried to represent the areas of body color overspray with green in the attached pic.  The overspray is heaviest by the firewall, and then lessens as you move forward, as would make sense if you're painting body color firewall back.  There is actually very little forward of the shock tower, but some.  Also, horizontal surfaces like the lip on the frame rail and top side of beads in the sheet metal have caught the overspray, whereas the underside hasn't.

So considering this, do I have one of the "new guy on paint" cars, or did I miss something and this is typical for my plant & period?  I did notice the 65 assembly manual noted that body color overspray was acceptable in these areas as well.

Thanks,
Rich

[J_Speegle]

Thanks Jeff for the great info.  So per the above quote, I'm assuming black was applied to the engine compartment inside and outside (wheel sides), from the firewall forward after the body color.

You don't have to assume - have looked at thousands of 65-66 San Jose Mustangs and that was the way I've found them

However, I am pretty sure I am finding original body color overspray on the outside of the inner fenders on both sides of the car.  This is Turquoise color over a black or possibly slop color.  This is under the aftermarket undercoating. 

Are we sure the car has never been touched up, repainted, repair in any way?  Its not like, on the line, they could choose to apply paint in a different sequence without moving big fairly permanent spray booths around the plant. Could thi shave been a result of a paint repair on the line?

I tried to represent the areas of body color overspray with green in the attached pic.

Since its over the black O'm guessing that you found it under the factory sealers and sound deadener - or over?


 

The overspray is heaviest by the firewall, and then lessens as you move forward, as would make sense if you're painting body color firewall back.  There is actually very little forward of the shock tower, but some.  Also, horizontal surfaces like the lip on the frame rail and top side of beads in the sheet metal have caught the overspray, whereas the underside hasn't.

Looking at your picture and shading was there a shadow from the bumper bracket on the frame rail?

So considering this, do I have one of the "new guy on paint" cars, or did I miss something and this is typical for my plant & period?  I did notice the 65 assembly manual noted that body color overspray was acceptable in these areas as well.

Body color over the black is not typical for any original paint I've seen other than a factory repair or touch up. The "new guy" results is sometimes the body color forward allot from the firewall is always under the black so its hidden until we get carried away with cleaning and scrubbing off the sometimes thin black paint application

Assembly manual says and shows plenty that wasn't followed or practiced at some or all of the plants - one example is the sound deadener application shown in the manual - wow looks like they suggest that the edges be taped and material applied to every  inch of the surface. Had one guy do this on his show car     Didn't get a good result in the out come

At other plants and years you'll typically find some body color but as mentioned not typical at your cars plant

[livetoride60]

Thanks Jeff.  I took some time to check further and put together some better pics.  Here you go....

Are we sure the car has never been touched up, repainted, repair in any way? 

Yes, it has had an amatuer repaint at some point, but looks like they didn't remove the fenders, and I'm finding body color (turquoise) overspray under the factory sound deadener.

Could this have been a result of a paint repair on the line?

Could have, because it seems like it's from the factory.  See observations.

Since its over the black O'm guessing that you found it under the factory sealers and sound deadener - or over?

It's under the tanish factory sound deadener, but over the seam sealers.  Looks like the seam sealer was applied directly on the metal, because when it comes off it exposes bare metal.  See pics.

Looking at your picture and shading was there a shadow from the bumper bracket on the frame rail?

This is tough to tell because I sprayed a little semi gloss black a while back on the area where the bumper bracket attaches just to protect it.  Upon cleaning that up, it looks like there may be a shadow cast by the bracket, but hard to tell if it's original paint or my black paint.  There is light body color overspray on the frame rail lip below it, and on the whole frame rail behind it has the overspray, including under the yellow fender numbers and X by the steering bolts.

Also, my original pic above exaggerates the amount of overspray forward of the shock tower.  It is there, but much lighter than behind the shock tower.  Also, there is overspray in the shock tower cavity on the forward side, like you'd expect from body color being shot back by the cowl side panel but aimed towards the front of car.

Here are some more observations & pics:

Rubbed through the paint layers with lacquer thinner in 4 places:  opposite the hood hinges on both sides of car, and directly below those locations on the frame rail, behind the steering box bolt heads on left side, and idler arm bolts on right side. 

Opposite the hood hinges on both sides (see pics), the layers are looking like this: 1 (outer most layer) aftermarket undercoating, 2) factory tanish sound deadener, 3) turquoise overspray, 4) black, 5) bare metal.

The bottom two areas I rubbed on the frame rails are the same, except with red primer between the black and bare metal.  The red primer is very thick on the bottom of the car, but fades out as you move up the wheel-side of the inner fenders.

Also, the turquoise overspray is under the steering box bolts, and under the yellow X by those bolts.  See pics.  Maybe those weren't in place at the factory at time of paint, but if done later, you'd think they would leave them in place and overspray wouldn't be under them or under the X.  Since all this is under what appears to be factory sound deadener, seems like it's from the factory.

Also, from what I recall, inside the engine compartment the turquoise overspray was under the black, as you'd expect.

Interesting stuff.   So what do you think...a factory touch up / fix? 

[J_Speegle]

Thanks Jeff.  I took some time to check further and put together some better pics.  Here you go....

It's under the tanish factory sound deadener, but over the seam sealers.  Looks like the seam sealer was applied directly on the metal, because when it comes off it exposes bare metal.  See pics.

Firstly - good detective work - just the process I would suggest in digging into the findings

Not unusual for some seam sealers (or even sound deadener in the rear wheel wells to be applied directly to bare metal on early San Jose cars. At some point they switched to over red oxide in some areas

.............There is light body color overspray on the frame rail lip below it, and on the whole frame rail behind it has the overspray, including under the yellow fender numbers and X by the steering bolts.

Since those markings were added after body and trim we would expect them to be over anything other than the factory sound deadener in the front wheel wells

Also, my original pic above exaggerates the amount of overspray forward of the shock tower.  It is there, but much lighter than behind the shock tower.  Also, there is overspray in the shock tower cavity on the forward side, like you'd expect from body color being shot back by the cowl side panel but aimed towards the front of car.

Here are some more observations & pics:

Rubbed through the paint layers with lacquer thinner in 4 places:  opposite the hood hinges on both sides of car, and directly below those locations on the frame rail, behind the steering box bolt heads on left side, and idler arm bolts on right side. 

Opposite the hood hinges on both sides (see pics), the layers are looking like this: 1 (outer most layer) aftermarket undercoating, 2) factory tanish sound deadener, 3) turquoise overspray, 4) black, 5) bare metal.

Just as a note we find the 65-66 sound deadener in many shades after all these years - from black to white depending on conditions it appears. Might be the asbestos that was used in the stuff

Also, the turquoise overspray is under the steering box bolts, and under the yellow X by those bolts.  See pics.  Maybe those weren't in place at the factory at time of paint, but if done later, you'd think they would leave them in place and overspray wouldn't be under them or under the X.  Since all this is under what appears to be factory sound deadener, seems like it's from the factory.

As mentioned above the suspension parts were not installed during the body and trim part of the assembly so your findings are consistent with other cars - same plant and time

With the pictures you have presented a very consistent picture of what is there. Everything seems to be just like the tens of thousands I've seen through the years except for that layer of body color.

Interesting stuff.   So what do you think...a factory touch up / fix?

Just if we are trying to explain the findings that is the only explanation I can come up with that explains your findings IMHO

Since you have fairly consistent findings on both sides of the car I would guess that the paint repair was done to the top of the cowl section. This would likely produce the overspray you found

Always seems to be the odd (or different one) that turns up - figuring out how it got that way is the challenge

Your next question (or at least it normally is) will be "Should I restore the car the way I found it or finish it the way Ford/San Jose would have wanted it done?"

[livetoride60]

Firstly - good detective work - just the process I would suggest in digging into the findings

Thanks very much.  I love solving a mystery almost as much as anything.

Everything seems to be just like the tens of thousands I've seen through the years except for that layer of body color.

Is this lack of body color over black something you've seen both before and after my car (Oct 64) at San Jose?  Since San Jose was only up and running since July, wondering if body color overspray in the wheel wells was the process at first, then they switched after Oct to a different process.  Having examples before Oct would eliminate that possibility.

Your next question (or at least it normally is) will be "Should I restore the car the way I found it or finish it the way Ford/San Jose would have wanted it done?"

So...should I restore the car the way I found it or finish it the way Ford/San Jose would have wanted it done? 

My feeling is the way I found it, because that's the way mine was, and it's unique to my car....but always interested in opinions...

[J_Speegle]

Is this lack of body color over black something you've seen both before and after my car (Oct 64) at San Jose?  Since San Jose was only up and running since July, wondering if body color overspray in the wheel wells was the process at first, then they switched after Oct to a different process....or it's just a one-off paint fix.

If it was a change in order/process then we would see that same order of application on other cars built then and there. Also doing the process as your car is would have required the painters to mask off the engine compartment during the exterior paint process

This does bring up something else you can check. What is the paint order on the top end of the engine compartment lip/transition panel down to bare metal, where the fender attaches as it meets the cowl panel. Normally its body color with engine compartment black over that.

So...should I restore the car the way I found it or finish it the way Ford/San Jose would have wanted it done? 

My feeling is the way I found it, because that's the way mine was, and it's unique to my car....but always interested in opinions...

Been involved with many of these choices. It comes down to having the odd car and becoming the guy that owns "that car"

I fully understand wanting to reproduce what you found if you've determined that it is as the car was originally delivered. Of course this choice comes with the task of explaining the difference to just about ever person that sees your car or they will blindly copy what your car has without asking.  No real problem (well only a little if your having your car judged since the documentation would be done and presented to the judging group before they start on your car.

In my experience most owners choose to correct things back to the norm - but its still an individual choice

I'm faced with a similar choice with my next car. I've got a blue alternator fan, heat stamped quarter windows (66 GT350) and I'm strongly thinking of leaving the lead lumps in the quarter panel to roof transition area.