Topic: Experiance needed with new waterborne paint systems

[Bob Gaines]

I was wanting input on waterborne paint in general as well as opinion of how viable it is over existing enamel paint. I have a all over enamel paint that is 10 years plus old job that needs color change and it is next to perfect with the exception of the wrong color. I have talked to a few painters who with reasonable cause would not guarantee the finish without stripping down to bare metal. Rather then strip down to bare metal I thought that the waterborne may not react with the existing paint with shrinkage etc. since it is solvent free and allow me to skip the labor intensive strip down procedure. I have never been around this new product and have only heard the gossip good and bad about it. What say you. 

[Murf]

Bob, although the color is water based, the clear coat is, if my understanding is correct, still solvent based.  I have not used any of this product but am only posting what people with some knowledge of the product have told me when I asked now it worked.  Not really an answer to your question but maybe some food for thought.

[Bob Gaines]

Bob, although the color is water based, the clear coat is, if my understanding is correct, still solvent based.  I have not used any of this product but am only posting what people with some knowledge of the product have told me when I asked now it worked.  Not really an answer to your question but maybe some food for thought.

Yes the clear is solvent based.

[J_Speegle]

Don't know of any local shops that would offer a guarantee with WB/CC over another paint job.

My experience with the base or water base clear coats have been mixed and when a car is uses allot and exposed to the elements here they tend to break down. Sort of like what was going on in the 80's when the factories first started using clear coats. Talked to a few of the paint suppliers and they all had great promises but also admitted that no one expects for anything to last allot of years. Comments like why would you want to own a car after 4-5 years showed me where their focus was.

[jcuprisi]

First, the terminology can be confusing. Water borne is not water based paint. The pigment is similar to solvent based paint. Water is used as the transfer medium instead of VOC solvents

Second, having said that, I know a person who works for a major auto paint manufacturer that shall remain nameless. She is a paint chemist and although the future is waterborne paint, off the record for classic cars she still recommends solvent based paints topped with a solvent based clearcoat. The official company line is that waterborne is as good as solvent based, but my chemist friend states that the water bourne pigment is different enough that the finish will not match a solvent based pigment, despite the fact that the water bourne is top coated with a solvent based clear.

If you are planning a major paint job now is the time to purchase your solvent based paint because it will become more difficult to acquire. My 73 Mach 1 will be painted with solvent based yellow next month and top coated with clear. I expect it to be the last paint job it will need. I will also have enough left over for spot repairs since the shelf life is years for properly stored paint.

Lastly, waterborne is new to many painters. They are currently repainting newer cars that came from the factory with waterborne paint jobs. These are the vehicles they are being trained. Based upon what my paint chemist has said I would be hesitant to spray water borne over solvent based paint.

Thank you.

[cobrajetchris]

The main reason most shops will not guarantee a repaint is because they don't know what is under the repaint,  such as poor sanding, too much material etc.. If the finish was original they most likely wouldn't want to strip it down to bare metal. If your repaint is 10 years old and no problems have shown up this most likely is not the case because poor prep work would have already shown up.
  The solvent base/water base question should really not be an issue on that old of a finish either way you go. As far as durability most name brand paint companies offer a life time warranty on their product if it's over a factory finish or stripped down to bare metal. The durability of water borne should be the same as solvent base because all the U.V protection is in the clear coat.
 

[suskeenwiske]

Bob,

Maybe one of the easiest ways to remember what Water Based means is that, once the paint has dried, you can dissolve it again with water; as is often the case with certain interior house paints. I believe that people have confused what a particular paint cleans up as opposed to what it takes to dissolve it.

Having been in the automotive industry for some years, I may have another take on why a body/paint shop will not guarantee their paint when applied over another finish, including one that they may have sprayed themselves. What a customer hears and interprets is not necessarily what was conveyed or written on paper.

The paint shop says they will not guarantee their paint job when applied over another finish; the customer hears, they will not guarantee their paint job if the finish under the new paint job causes an issue with the new paint job, but the paint is guaranteed if an issue arises that, in the customers opinion, was the result of there being something wrong with the new paint or how it was applied. Ultimately, the paint shop just does not want the potential hassles this type of customer could present including being taken to small claims court. The shop may win the case but in the meantime they've lost time and money; even their reputation may suffer as a result. It does not matter if the shop was not at fault, if someone perceives the shop to be at fault...they are and they won't be bringing their car to that shop.

If it's possible to spray a waterborne paint over enamel, it may require sealing the old paint first...adds cost. I don't think or know if enough research has been done to determine the life of the waterborne paint under various conditions and applications. Were it my car, I would either strip the old paint or do as jcuprisi suggest; get your paint now. Strictly a personal preference...I always strip the car down to metal. My last Mustang had been repaired and I found Bondo as thick as an inch near the B-Pillar.

Ray

[J_Speegle]

The main reason most shops will not guarantee a repaint is because they don't know what is under the repaint,  such as poor sanding, too much material etc.. If the finish was original they most likely wouldn't want to strip it down to bare metal. ..........

There is a fair number of local shops that turn away any work that has been repainted or repaired. Basically they tell you to take your work elsehwere if its not all 100% factory paint 

.............................. As far as durability most name brand paint companies offer a life time warranty on their product if it's over a factory finish or stripped down to bare metal. The durability of water borne should be the same as solvent base because all the U.V protection is in the clear coat.

Depends on the company and the product - warranties vary in my experience. and the clear is where I'm seeing the issues with locally (just like the 80's all over again) My trunks hood (no paint prior) lost the clear coat at approx 5 years, the bed cover after 2 years and the repaint (by another shop lasted 2 years again. Car sits out side and is exposed to the mild conditions (well the heat and sun can be an issue) here locally.

Just my experiences

[cobrajetchris]

Jeff, There is a lot of people that blame the clear coat for the failure on factory painted vehicles. The most common reason for clear coat delamination is due to not applying enough material to get the U.V protection. I hate to say this but this is mostly a domestic brand problem due to the company going cheap or our E.P.A friends demanding lower emissions out of the U.S plants. I have several case in points: My mother had a 1986 Toyota Corolla and it was a Japan built car with base clear paint and it looked almost new 15 years later and it always sat outside and it never delaminated. I have a 1990 Ford Ranger that I bought new and the clear delaminated in 5 years. I stripped it down to bare metal and used Dupont base clear and applied 2 full wet coats and 10 years later the finish looks great and it sits outside all the time. The bottom line on after market paint work is it's only as good as what is under it and the preparation done before the final finish is applied.