Topic: MCA Judge's Meeting - October 11, 2013 Dallas, TX

[rcampbell]

Well to all safe travels and good luck at the meeting as it seems there is a lot to cover.

Tim, sorry I did not remember your name as I believe I judged Shelby's with you and Jeff awhile back. Again no disrespect to leaving you off of list. To your point it would be interesting to know who has restored any mustang to a thoroughbred level. Maybe they can chime in.

Rick

[$64stang]

How is the judges meeting going? Wish I was there, But at home working for free, Oh what fun it is!
Jake

[J_Speegle]

How is the judges meeting going? Wish I was there, But at home working for free, Oh what fun it is!
Jake

Good choice

[ruppstang]

Thanks to all of you that attended the MCA judges meeting last weekend. The meeting lasted over ten hours and much was done. It was also a testament to how sitting down face to face many of the issues can be resolved. I was impressed with the great attitude that everyone brought to the meeting. Even though much was done much more could be improved. I would challenge those that attended and those that did not to keep working on ideas to keep the MCA judging moving forward. I also want to say thanks to several of you that sent me emails with suggestions and ideas that I passed on to those in charge.
If you have ideas for next years judges meeting such as meeting locations and dates I would like to collect some to consider for next year.

To me one of the best of the out of the box or new ideas that came out of the meet was offered by forum member mgmradio, was that unrestored cars that have had a repaint or a engine rebuild at some point but other wise are untouched that under the current rules would be out of contention. The rules be adjusted so these cars have a place to compete and not be lost to restoration. Great idea.
Marty

[mgmradio]

Thanks Marty.
   I've been pitching that idea for at least 7 years now, but looks like we may get something done on it now.

[jwc66k]

-- was that unrestored cars that have had a repaint or a engine rebuild at some point but other wise are untouched that under the current rules would be out of contention. The rules be adjusted so these cars have a place to compete and not be lost to restoration.

After 50 years (almost) of production an unrestored Mustang is rare, and in many cases deteriorated, not abused, just old. If "unrestored" cars are allowed to include re-painting or a rebuilt engine, where will it stop? Original paint has certain characteristics like the sheen and orange peel. An engine is a bit different, most of the engine is inside the block.
If the proposals are accepted, there should be documentation presented as to what was done, and maybe include detailed photographs. Remember, Ford was not building concourse cars.
Jim

[workhorse]

Although I cannot recall the cars year, there was a story of an original low mileage Mustang several years ago that had been painted either in the late 70's or early 80's. The car had been stored inside a house and over time had accrued its share of paint flaws because of its storage. Because at the time the car was simply viewed as an old Mustang, the car was repainted but otherwise completely original. The owners expressed that they did not show the car for the simple reason that it was no longer considered original and also not restored. The last I heard the car was back in storage.

Whatever the outcome of the suggestions, it seems a shame to miss out on these cars in one way or another.

[J_Speegle]

Thanks Marty.
   I've been pitching that idea for at least 7 years now, but looks like we may get something done on it now.

Will be interesting to see what the finished class ( standards and rules) looks like but its great that you finally   got the "tweeners" a place.

"tweeners" is a term we've been using in discussions for years (one that Mike brought  up numerous times) for the cars that fell be"tween" the classic unrestored and lightly restored cars.  We've often gotten some of these cars to attend MCA  shows but getting them to come out numerous times (not allot of benefit to the owners) has been difficult.

Good to see allot of you at the meeting - sorry that were were not many new faces in the crowd. Something that really needs to be fixed/improved. Allot of the members here have the knowledge base to start down the road of judging and an opportunity to share (in another medium) that knowledge with others.

[hopeto]

To me one of the best of the out of the box or new ideas that came out of the meet was offered by forum member mgmradio, was that unrestored cars that have had a repaint or a engine rebuild at some point but other wise are untouched that under the current rules would be out of contention. The rules be adjusted so these cars have a place to compete and not be lost to restoration.

It's not out of the box it's insane.
If a car has been painted it is NOT unrestored.
"Not lost to restoration"?? Once you paint - that ship has sailed!
If you allow a repaint in unrestored then you are telling folks it's OK to paint an unrestored car - What a TRAGEDY that would be!!!!!!
Original paint and patina gone forever. Dumbest idea I've ever heard!!!!!!!!!!

[ruppstang]

It's not out of the box it's insane.
If a car has been painted it is NOT unrestored.
"Not lost to restoration"?? Once you paint - that ship has sailed!
If you allow a repaint in unrestored then you are telling folks it's OK to paint an unrestored car - What a TRAGEDY that would be!!!!!!
Original paint and patina gone forever. Dumbest idea I've ever heard!!!!!!!!!!

No need to get excited. I do not think the intent is to have these types of cars competing with the unrestored. More of a survivor/historic preservation class. I have been thinking today about how the mechanics of the class might work. It can not happen until we have agreed on how it would work. I hope some of you may have some ideas too.

Just because the paint or some other aspect is no longer in place in no reason to discard valuable piece of history. 

[hopeto]

No on wants to discard these cars. My point is that once you've repainted - your restored. Start the conversation with Hey, we need a new class for these lightly restored vehicles that have only had a paint job. Don't start with Hey, let's talk about these "unrestored" cars that have been painted. The term unrestored should never be in the conversation regarding a vehicle that has been painted. If you are going to talk "survivor/historic preservation then mechanical/maintenance items should be allowed, but again not a repaint. To me that is just the line you cross once you've repainted - you're restored. Thanks

[workhorse]

It interesting that your comments mentioned "survivor" and "preservation" as we recently visited an open make show that included those two as sub "original"classes. Although I didn't pay that much attention to the exact rules, the survivor class was pre-1974, original, which meant only specified maintenance parts allowed, not a repaint btw, and had to have documented low mileage. I do not know what the mileage cut off was.
The preservation class also had a mileage clause that I know was 35k miles or less, did allow paint although I do not know if it was complete or partial as well as meeting the remaining "survivor" rules.

MCA, dedicated to the preservation, care, history and enjoyment of ALL 

[mgmradio]

In the current unrestored class if more than 1/3 of the car has been painted or if the carpet has been changed the car can basically not be shown as unrestored even though the engine compartment and under carriage have been left intact. There are many cars with untouched engine compartments, interiors and under carriages that because of a minor accident or other reasons has had a compleat repaint and would other wise be very desirable cars. Most of the details we are interested in preserving and learning from is the actual mechanics and underside/ hidden details that these cars still posses. Original paint is nice , but I feel that it is the least valuable characteristic that we look at when trying to understand how these cars were built and the details of certain time periods at the different plants. Face it, the exterior paint was applied in a fairly consistent manner across the board .
  It is a shame and a great loss to the judging and restoration community to lose these reference cars because of an earlier mistake .
  The guide lines for this class have yet to be written . It would be my suggestion to make it a certification class similar to HPOF class in AACA , were a certain % of the car is original and not a competition class were it is judged against a point standard. This is the way most survivor classes are judged.
  This would also give a place for the truly unrestored cars that have significant wear because of mileage or the conditions it was stored in.
  If you have a problem with a class like this just ask Jeff what he has learned from all the cars he has checked out in the junk yards.
  On the other hand I would also like to make changes to the current Unrestored class . Basically what I propose is to split it into 2 classes, Unrestored Thoroughbred for the cars that are extremely low mileage and judged as a TB ,and an Unrestored class for the higher mileage cars that are still nearly 100 % original but have had normal maintenance items replaced and have normal wear with slightly loosened rules like the difference between trailered and driven Concourse.
  It is my feeling that by making these changes we will all benefit by saving and drawing more of these cars to the shows were they can be seen.
 

[hopeto]

Is the logic/perception that folks with one repaint, but otherwise minor flaws are not showing up to shows because there is not a class that caters directly to them?
And you don't think that the 7 main categories are enough? - Unrestored, Thoroughbred, Concours, Concours Driven, Occasional Driven, Daily Driven and Modified.
You want to break it down even more?

In the current unrestored class if more than 1/3 of the car has been painted or if the carpet has been changed the car can basically not be shown as unrestored even though the engine compartment and under carriage have been left intact.

Why do you state "basically not be shown"?
Under current rules in unrestored you can paint up to 2/3rds of the car and only get docked 50 points. That's still a silver with 20 points to spare and not counting any bonus points.
How is that not fair?
If you're painting more than that then it was not a minor accident or it was a choice.
I think the logic is off as to why these cars are being "lost".
Changing the rules is not going to magically make them reappear.
I think folks with cars of this nature just aren't all that into car shows.
They would rather cruise or do a drive-in show and that's why they aren't coming.

If you have a problem with a class like this just ask Jeff what he has learned from all the cars he has checked out in the junk yards.

I'm not sure what you mean by "a class like this" so I don't understand the correlation.

[workhorse]

Although I have no dog in this hunt, I tend to believe that the number of cars that would fall into this "yet to be determined" category would be few, possibly similar to a thoroughbred class at most shows. Like thoroughbreds though, they are out there. I think the paint discussion is taking focus away from these "tweener" cars.
I do agree that having a "class" wouldn't automatically mean more cars would participate, but as we have seen for years the older cars are making up less of the showfield each year and eventually will be a rare sight in a sea of newer examples.

I also agree that folks who do have these cars may not be interested in showing at all. This may be by choice or possibly because they don't feel they have chance. Obviously not everyone can win, but everyone can feel good about thier car.

There are many hairs that can be split in both directions here. The bottom line is, if carving out a place no matter how small opens a door for more enthusiasts to enjoy the hobby, then every effort should be exausted to accomodate them.