Topic: MCA Judge's Meeting - October 11, 2013 Dallas, TX

[CharlesTurner]

Probably the only reason I know about it is I have been in contact with Wayne Campbell over the years and it's his company.

[J_Speegle]

Probably the only reason I know about it is I have been in contact with Wayne Campbell over the years and it's his company.

I've seen and discussed it with him many times - just didn't recognize the name of the product 

[ruppstang]

Marty,
I have re-read the posts you referred too. The suggestions to improve the Thoroughbred Class seem to all have come from you? I’ve copied your ideas below.  I’ve also responded to your suggestions.

I have been part of the MCA for almost 20 years and will have to admit that I did not know too much about the Tbred class and the Authenticity award until Tari and I took over the tally room in 2011. The most important is participation in the class.
Tari and I are committed to improving the judging process in all MCA classes.
Thanks
Marty Rupp

I don’t believe it’s in the job description of the MCA judging Secretaries (Tally Room) to suggest MCA Class requirements. Participation numbers in THB & Unrestored classes’ 65-73 have never been huge due to the limited number of Unrestored and Thoroughbred cars. The Unrestored class is MCA’s most important and prestigious class. Participation numbers are low for obvious reasons. THB numbers are also low for similar reasons. The turnout at Indy was very good. Maybe turnout is related to Show location?

I would like to know how to become a Thoroughbred judge? I asked to be part of the team at the Mustang OK. grand national that judged the 68 Tbred. I was not included. With only 6 Tbred cars in all of last year the opportunity to judge one does not come around very often. I know that I am no way qualified to judge Tbreds but how are you to learn. If the MCA is to continue to offer this class we must have judges in training.

You asked how to become a THB Judge?  Unfortunately, it’s not possible to get the information to become a THB judge off the “Tire Rack Website”. It took most of the current Thoroughbred judge’s decades to gain their knowledge to be qualified THB and Unrestored judges. Most have been MCA National Head Judges, assistant National Head Judges, owners or restorers of Unrestored or THB cars. Most are well educated in original parts identification, proper assembly line finishes and assembly line production procedures. Most if not all THB judges have a special interest in Unrestored cars. Unrestored cars are the best text book for the THB class.  

At most grand nationals the Tberd class is no more than 1% of the cars in attendance and yet a extraordinary amount of time and effort is given to them. At national shows the class is nonexistent. If this very special class and if it is to continue some things need  to change.

Why do you think you have the knowledge to suggest changes to a Class you admit you know little about and are not qualified to Judge?

Here are a few thoughts. As discussed expanded judges training. Better attendance through the year even when there is no authenticity award at stake. To that end change the authenticity award to be given to those that have collected required points over a season. That would promote better attendance and guard against a onetime poor judging.

The suggestion that mandatory show attendance should be tied to the Authenticity award is ridiculous. Authenticity and show attendance are not relative. It is not the responsibility of Thoroughbred or Unrestored car owners to educate MCA judges. Apparently since OKC you have learned how to get on a Thoroughbred judging team as you helped judge my 69 Mustang in Indy. Must not be too hard to tag along as you are not even listed as a 69 -70 judge according to MCA judges list? I’m sure it was a learning experience as you now know 69’s did not use starter delays.

It has also been suggested that the concourse judge sheets be no longer used and new more comprehensive Thoroughbred sheets be developed by some of you best of the best judges. That way better consistency will be had when a less experienced judge is left to the task.   

Suggested by Who? Marty Rupp? Better detailed judging sheets in all concours classes continue to evolve. I don’t think anyone will argue this is a good thing to continue. I don’t believe however, a judging sheet will make a judge qualified if not qualified beforehand. The Bonus point sheets could use a few additions such as build sheets etc. and eliminate bonus points for generic items such as showroom brochure. I think it would be a good idea to add to the Thoroughbred Judging Sheets and MCA website a more detailed explanation of judging standards at MCA National VS Grand National show due to Authenticity award. Apparently some people don’t understand the definition for “No Reproductions allowed”. 

Also the thought of adding the old technical inspection to process to insure that these best of best cars operate as they were delivered from the assembly plant.
OK you can start yellling at me now! Marty

The Tech inspection was dropped for all MCA classes because MCA decided it was a waste of time. Please inform us how a Tech inspection would increase participation in Thoroughbred  class? 

The MCA judging committee has suggested on more than one occasion  to the MCA BOD that the Grand National should be required to have a 4 post lift on site to judge Thoroughbred Gold and Unrestored Gold cars for the Authenticity and Platinum awards.  This will help insure the cars are judged accurately on undercarriage and would also serve as a training tool by displaying various cars throughout the event. This request needs to be implemented. The 4 post lift would be the best judging tool MCA could implement to improve the THB and Unrestored class.

See you in Dallas Martin! 

Great Bob I will look forward to your input. If some of my uninformed out of the box thinking brings some of the old MCA pros back to a MCA judges meeting then I guess the beating was worth it. Marty

[gtamustang]

More may come back with the next changing of the guard! 

Regards,
Pete Morgan

[mgmradio]

More may come back with the next changing of the guard! 

Regards,
Pete Morgan

   If there is anything left to salvage.

 I totally agree with Bobs reply.
  I also don't see the need to update the TB or Unrestored classes for early cars other than the bonus points sheet as Bob mentioned because of the late model nags coming in. Let them do there own thing with there judging like they do now as they have already gone back to the old sheets. If they don't want to conform why should we change what has worked well for years.

[CharlesTurner]

The reason there are perceived problems with Thoroughbred right now is due to the fact that hardly any of the assistant or national head judges are qualified to judge them.  It's hard for others to get training when there are few mentors to work with.

Also, agree with Mike about the newer cars.  The judges for those classes feel compelled to use their own judging guidelines, so let them do whatever they want to.  Obviously, consistency is not of concern to them.

[rcampbell]

In my opinion the MCA is doing nothing to encourage those with thoroughbred cars to bring them to an MCA show. As an owner of two thoroughbred cars, both of which has won the Authenticity Award, I have felt like some within the MCA look at these cars as more of a problem than an attraction to those that appreciate seeing some of the best restored cars in the country. I have been treated with more appreciation from the ISCA than I have ever been with my cars at an MCA show. It seems as though some of those that are in control want the newer cars and driver quality restoration. I witnessed this first hand at the Indy show this year which was the first time I have showed my Boss 9 at an MCA show.

As far as the judging I am really confused as to why some think there is a problem with the way thoroughbreds are being judged. As Charles has mentioned there are very few that are qualified to judge these cars. You cannot teach someone how to judge cars at this level in a round table meeting. It has taken those that are qualified to judge these cars 30-40years to learn correct part numbers, date codes, assembly line techniques etc. Guys like Bob Perkins, Jim Cunningham, Charles Turner, Ed Meyer, Jeff Speegle, Bob Gaines, all of which I have had the pleasure of judging with, are the best of the best and are some of the very few that are qualified to judge for thoroughbred and authenticity awards. Now I know there are a few more that I haven't judged with that are also qualified but they are few.

There is a reason that the MCA has established a National Head Judge(Alan Steward), an Authenticity Judge(Bob Perkins) along with Assistant National Head Judges because they are some of the most knowledgeable Mustang judges in the world. These are the people that should be leading the way for any changes that can improve our judging system.

Mr. Rupp my question to you is what are your credentials to recommend changes to the thoroughbred judging system. Have you owned a thoroughbred level car, have you judged thoroughbred cars in the past, do you know what it takes to restore a car to the thoroughbred level. You say these cars need to be started. Are you aware that when you start these cars that the moisture starts to ruin the NOS exhaust system. The bolts that have been intentionally left loose so that it does not chip the paint now has to tightened to prevent the fluids from leaking out. NOS tires can be ruined by driving over sharp objects. Now these may not be your type of car maybe you prefer cars that have reproduction parts and undercoated undercarriages and fuzzy dice around your mirror as you drive down the road which is great if you like that. But for some the pursuit of excellence is what we try to achieve. For this reason I believe cars restored to these high levels are responsible for the continued recognition and financial appreciation we have seen with the Mustang brand.

By the both of my Thoroughbred cars have been started, one has been sold and I still have the other. IT has become an almost impossible task to keep it to the level it was due to the fact of starting it.

So let's leave the improvements in judging to those that have earned the right to be in the positions they are in with the MCA and once they make a decision about the judging of a car they should not be questioned by anyone including the President of the MCA.

Rick Campbell
317-752-5469 

[CharlesTurner]

Well said Rick. 

It would be great to have more qualified judges, but maybe the club should be doing a better job of embracing and encouraging those that do have the knowledge to attend shows and help mentor other judges.  I heard there is talk of eliminating the authenticity head judge position, who in their right mind would even consider that? 

As Mike Murray says, I hope there is something to salvage after all the damage is done.

[ruppstang]

This has been a very reveling thread indeed. I am very disappointed in some that I have held in the high regard here. All I was asking for is your help in making things better but it seems that personal political fights are more important. I never made any claim to know more about this class than any of you. What I do know some thing about is honesty, integrity and fair judging. Things that some of you have taught me.
I have been told here that the Tbred class is about absolute authenticity, every part number, each date code and every metal finish at what ever the cost. Right? These car must be as delivered from Ford. My 68 build sheet says that it was filled with 4 gallons of gas. So how is a dry car reprehensive of as Ford delivered? All that said to say if I could afford one of these cars it would be dry as well and I would take the -1 deduction knowing it is the right thing to preserve the car. One of you wise men told me that it is important to all ways leave room for the guy that has it right. The -1 point was not to be a penalty but a reward to the one that has it right.
After three years on the inside of the MCA we have seen some judge conduct that makes me sick but I am not going to get in to that here.

I will see those of you that want to make a difference in Dallas
Marty

[CharlesTurner]

Marty:  Don't want to delve into discussions regarding how a T-bred should be prepared/presented, but I think you're a little off-mark on the comments about having to run and have gas.  You're not thinking about preservation, which really is at the heart of not wanting to crank up and drive these cars.  Most times, they are never intended to be driven, think of them as a piece of art, which is kind of what they are in a weird sort of way.  If the club wants to discriminate against that, then T-bred cars simply won't be a part of the shows anymore.  I've always thought that MCA tries to be flexible and listen to what members want.  Having been on the outside looking in for the past couple years, I am sickened at what I have seen/heard also.

[mgmradio]

Marty,
   This is not a personal attack, but do you really think it would be realistic to expect someone that has spent north of 100K and untold hours finding original assembly line parts ,many of which are unobtainium to now have to find original fluids to put in these works of art? #1 Gas has a shelf life. #2 Modern gas is incompatible with most components in early Mustang fuel systems including fuel pump diaphragms, accelerator pump diaphragms , etc.. #3 the Methanol added to modern fuels is hygroscopic and promotes accelerated rusting of the fuel tank and lines. #4 One of the byproducts of combustion is sulfuric acid , which causes the exhaust system to rot.
    The way these cars are not presented as normal over restored cars , they are actually Museum pieces restored to to the same quality that would have been seen at the end of the assembly line. Adding fluids dose not add anything substantial to there authenticity , and only accelerates there deterioration. Though I'd don't own a TB restoration , owning Unrestored cars I am fully aware of the damage caused by fluids in these cars.
   The main goals of the MCA are to preserve the history of the Mustang and to promote comradery in the community. What better way to preserve the history than promoting the showing of these cars? Changes to this class will only hurt the judging community and Mustang enthusiasts as a whole by driving the away from the shows were they can be seen and studied up close by hundreds of people as opposed to be sitting in a museum or private garage were they will only be seen by a few.
  The people who build these cars are the most hard core enthusiasts and posses the highest knowledge of  Mustangs around and many have worked hard in the judging community to share this knowledge and help perfect the judging system . Do you really want to drive them out?
  Sorry if this sounds disjointed.....I'm no ya writer. But mu 2 cents worth.

[Mike Bauman]

Hi! 
Can any one give me an itinerary with some approximate times for the Meeting?  I am trying to set up my flight and lodging reservations.
Thanks in advance! Mike Bauman

[67158]

Meeting will start at 9am. It will be at AER Re manufacturing 1605 Surveyor Blvd Carrollton Tx.
Host hotel is the Courtyard DFW South
Number is 972-790-8990

There is special rate for MCA participants.

Jeff Mays

[rcampbell]

I really hate to miss the judges meeting this time but work forces me to stay home. Charles you are absolutely correct about these cars becoming pieces of art. The amount of money and total dedication of time and research the restorers put in to bring these cars to that level is amazing. One thing that cannot happen, in my opinion, is that when the head judges and authenticity judge make a decision on judging a car they should not be questioned or over ruled by anyone else within the MCA. I saw happen at the Indy show. A car was judge and then the restorer not the owner gathered up several of the head judges to find out if he should take his car to Florida to see if it would win the Authenticity Award. He was told that it was a very nice restored car but it did not meet the level needed to win the award at this time. We showed what he could work on to improve the car to bring it to a higher level that it is now. He was also told that the registration is closed for that show. So what happens, he contacts a high ranking official with the MCA and starts a combative situation between the judges and the MCA official. My problem with this is that the heads of the MCA should be standing up for those that have worked for so long to make the MCA the greatest automobile club in existence. Instead it divides its members and fails to promote the higher standards that we need for our judging system. We cannot bow down to the pressure that some car owners put on us to move their car to a higher level just because they can complain to other MCA officials. If this is how our judging system is going to be then we do not need judges meetings or judges for that matter lets just ask each owner what they feel that car should be awarded.

Rick Campbell
317-752-5469

[CJ-NINER]

I think all of this is the start of a big crack in the MCA crest. I had a coin toss with my self: Heads, I do something I like and will have fun, like my yearly fishing trip. The flip was tails, I lost, so I guess I am going to Dallas.

Jim C.