Author Topic: Antique Battery  (Read 13802 times)

Offline JKWilson

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2012, 01:37:34 AM »
Thanks for the detailed explanation!

Can you talk about sulfation a little more. I understand the effects can be reversed by the use of a "smart charger" that uses electronic pulse.

In the most basic sense, sulfation is the natural end result of the battery discharging. Although my explanation of a lead/acid battery was lengthy (shooting for understatement of the year award here!), it was still very basic. The plates are, as I stated, sponge lead. More specifically, the cathode plate (negative) is sponge lead. The anode plate is coated with a lead paste (I admittedly mix up the anode/cathode plates, so I may have it backwards). The chemical transfer between the two causes lead sulfates to form. Picture a powdery substance forming on the plates. leaving behind the previously described water portion of the electrolyte. This powdery substance can be referred to as sulfation. When the battery is charged it forces the sulfates back into solution, basically. As time passes this sulfation can began to form into a more solid crystalline structure. Do it's more solid mass it becomes more difficult to force it back into solution. This is what the battery charger manufacturers are claiming that "theirs" will avoid. With a proper float charging sequence applied they ALL prevent this from occurring as quickly. I say "as quickly" because NONE prevent it totally from occurring. They just delay the inevitable basically. If you examine various float chargers and read their descriptions, pretty much all of them have the best charger for helping "prevent" this and their technology is patented. If you want a more in depth chemistry explanation, Google "sulfation" and "lead sulfate". There are several very indepth treatise's on the web from chemical engineers and chemists. I'd suggest skipping anything from charger or battery manufacturers. They're trying to sell you something. The engineers and chemists have offer a more honest (IMHO), explanation, though pretty detailed and more technical.

Excellent explanation and some great answers to clarify what may or may not be a good product, but - The battery on my 1999 Ford E250 lasted over 11 years. It was factory installed. As to foreign cars, my neighbor replaced the factory battery in his 2003 Hyundai a couple of weeks ago only because it was over 10 years old and he had the money. I would assume that many other "long lived battery" tales exist. On the other hand, of all the repro Autolite red top batteries I've had over the last 25 years installed in my four Mustangs, they pretty much all died after about five years. I currently use what will fit.
Jim

Those factory Motorcraft batteries (with proper care), are GREAT, aren't they?! The fact that many folks do get rather lengthy service out of a battery is exactly why I included that little "disclaimer". They're like a lot of products; they have a given"standard" life rating, but many more years of service can be had out of a good quality, well maintained product. Heck, I have a microwave that's over 27 years old and still working great (though my mother has me beat with hers, almost 40 years old and still working fine!).

So with all this said, are the newer(5 yrs old or less) Reproduction Autolite Sta-ful batteries, "maintenance free"(and I'm assuming maintenance free means not having to add water nor anything to the battery),maintenance free, AGM or both?  and can they be trickle charged?...I've read this post by jkwilson and still a little confused.

I'd say mine is maintenance free because when you remove(unscrew) one of the red tops off the battery,there's nothing under it but more plastic....Thanks alot for any information. 

It's my understanding that they are indeed AGM. I know that Virginia Classic Mustang specifically lists the one they offer as AGM. I believe the one they sell is made by AAB. The term "maintenance free" has gotten a little confusing with the advent of AGM batteries (and gel batteries too), coming on the market in recent years. If you see AGM or Gel in the description (you WILL see that listed as the manufacturers are proud of it....and the cost reflects too!), they are TRUE "maintenance free" batteries. If you see "maintenance free" and DON'T see AGM or Gel listed anywhere in it's description, it's an old style that I previously described with the removable cover strip for cell access.

AGM batteries can be trickle (or "float), charged. Due to differences in design and some REALLY geeky chemical reaction differences they do have different criteria to watch when charging. These criteria involve charge rates, charging duration and minimum battery voltage limitations for charging. If they get to certain levels they require a different approach to bring them back up.
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Offline Pete Bush

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2012, 07:40:55 AM »
I've done some research and would like to post my findings (although the length may exceed your's JK  :)). I wonder if you wouldn't mind commenting on it to make sure I'm correct in my understanding.

If a battery is in use, it’s being discharged. And if a battery is sitting idle it is discharging. Sulfation is a by-product of the battery discharging. After a battery discharges, it must be recharged. During recharge, the lead sulfate is reconverted into lead active material and the sulfate returned to the electrolyte.  But in order to reverse the sulfation completely, the battery must be recharged completely - to 100%.

If a battery is used infrequently, and then used only for short periods, a 100% charge does not occur and hardened sulfate begins to form. Hardened sulfate also forms in a battery that is constantly being cycled in the middle of its capacity range (somewhere between 80% charged and 80% discharged), and is never recharged to 100%. Most charging sources, engine alternators and battery chargers, are voltage regulated. Their charging current is controlled by the battery's state of charge (SoC). During charging, battery voltage rises until it meets the charger's regulated voltage, lowering the current output along the way. But charging by virtue of voltage measurement is somewhat inaccurate and does not give a true reading of the SoC of a battery. The SoC is also depended upon temperature. A battery voltage of 12.45 volts at 70 degrees is at a different SoC than a battery of the same voltage at 90 degrees. A temperature compensated hydrometer is a more accurate measure of charge, but is somewhat less convenient and only works on wet-cell batteries.

The fully charged specific gravity of a wet-cell battery is 1.270. However, specific gravity cannot be measured on a sealed AGM battery, and a voltage measurement  of 12.9 – 13.1 volts is the only way to determine a 100% SoC.

Temperature and/or hard sulfate can make a battery show a false voltage, higher than its true voltage, fooling the voltage regulator into thinking that the battery is fully charged. This causes the charger to prematurely lower its current output, leaving the battery discharged – which propagates additional sulfation. Periodic charging at a higher than normal voltage and low current may be necessary to break down the hardened sulfate.

This controlled charging at higher than normal voltage is called “Equalization”. By equalizing the battery in this controlled overcharge the sulphate coating, is blown off, thereby rejuvenating the battery and allowing all the surface area of the plates to interact with the electrolyte.  It also causes the electrolyte to bubble and in wet cell batteries this mixes up the acid and distributes it evenly throughout the cell.

During equalization, the battery should be charged from an outside source at 2.6 to 2.7 - volts per cell (approximately 15.5 volts) and a low current rate (approximately 5 Amps for small batteries and 10-Amps for larger ones) until the specific gravity of the electrolyte starts to rise. (This indicates that the sulfate is breaking down.) Be careful not to let the internal temperature of the battery rise above 125° F. If it does, turn the charger off and let the battery cool. Then, continue charging until each cell in the battery is brought up to full charge (nominal 1.265 specific gravity or higher) or the specific gravity no longer rises..The time needed to complete this recharge depends on how long the battery has been discharged and how hard the sulfate has become.

Although AGM batteries self discharge at a rate 1/5th of conventional flooded batteries, they too will sulfate.  And equalizing AGM and other sealed batteries is a bit more tricky. The bubbling electrolyte results in some loss; electrolyte vapor exits the vent caps. However because there is no way to replace the lost electrolyte it is obvious that a different strategy is required. To apply a conditioning charge, first go through the normal charge cycle to bring the battery to full charge. The conditioning charge should then be applied by charging for several hours. At 77°F (25°C), the conditioning voltage should be held to a range of 2.3 to 2.6V per cell (13.8 – 15.6 volts for a 12 volt battery) and the current allowed to vary (electronic pulse). Temperature should be monitored to make sure the battery doesn’t get too warm and cause electrolyte to escape. Some chargers are equipped with selectable settings depending upon whether the battery is a Flooded, Gel, or AGM type – and have temperature sensors that can vary the charge depending upon the type and temperature of the battery.

Once the battery is fully charged, a float charge can be applied. During this phase, the charging voltage is reduced to typically 12.8V to 13.2V (about 2.2V per cell @ 77°F), and held constant at this value to obtain and maintain a fully charged battery state. A temperature sensor feedback to the charger may also be necessary during float charging. As temperatures decrease, voltage may need to increase in order to maintain a full SoC. The effects of temperature and voltage may also differ according to battery type. If a float charger is of a constant voltage type, and the temperature of the area where the battery is charged in is allowed to vary, then it may mean that the battery is being over-charged as temperatures rise and undercharged as temperatures fall. This may lead to the loss of electrolyte if over-charged significantly, or the loss of a full SoC and the resulting sulfation if undercharged for extended periods.

A good charger should have settings for different battery types, voltages and charge functions. As well as a temperature sensor, if charging is not done in a controlled temperature area.

sorry for the length :(
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 07:48:04 AM by Pete Bush »
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Offline ruppstang

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2012, 10:07:49 AM »
You could take the dieing battery dump the acid and neutralize it. Then cut open the bottom remove the lead plates and reseal the case. Use this for shows. I run a Auto parts store brand that is the sealed type with the Autolite topper on it for driving. Just a thought

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2012, 02:52:18 PM »

It's my understanding that they are indeed AGM. I know that Virginia Classic Mustang specifically lists the one they offer as AGM. I believe the one they sell is made by AAB. The term "maintenance free" has gotten a little confusing with the advent of AGM batteries (and gel batteries too), coming on the market in recent years. If you see AGM or Gel in the description (you WILL see that listed as the manufacturers are proud of it....and the cost reflects too!), they are TRUE "maintenance free" batteries. If you see "maintenance free" and DON'T see AGM or Gel listed anywhere in it's description, it's an old style that I previously described with the removable cover strip for cell access.

AGM batteries can be trickle (or "float), charged. Due to differences in design and some REALLY geeky chemical reaction differences they do have different criteria to watch when charging. These criteria involve charge rates, charging duration and minimum battery voltage limitations for charging. If they get to certain levels they require a different approach to bring them back up.
JKWilson,,,How can I tell from looking at the battery if it is indeed an AGM battery? I usually keep all my receipts and paperwork to my Mustang, but, for some reason I can't find my receipt for the battery. I know I did spend over $300 for the battery...Any help would be appreciated.

Offline JKWilson

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2012, 08:25:17 PM »
JKWilson,,,How can I tell from looking at the battery if it is indeed an AGM battery? I usually keep all my receipts and paperwork to my Mustang, but, for some reason I can't find my receipt for the battery. I know I did spend over $300 for the battery...Any help would be appreciated.

IIRC, the standard lead/acid battery they sold was cheaper. Brant may be able to chime in and help confirm what you have for sure.
'66 GT Fastback,  Metuchen, 10/28/65, 289-4v w/4spd
'66 Sprint Coupe, Dearborn, 06/11/66, 200ci w/ C4
'91 LX Convertible, Dearborn, 08/91, 5.0 w/AOD
'92 LX Hatchback, Dearborn, 5.0 w/AOD

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2012, 09:13:14 PM »
You could take the dieing battery dump the acid and neutralize it. Then cut open the bottom remove the lead plates and reseal the case. Use this for shows. I run a Auto parts store brand that is the sealed type with the Autolite topper on it for driving. Just a thought

I've got a sealed AUTOLITE battery I'm think of gutting and putting a smaller sealed battery inside (run some cables from the new battery to the bottom of the  post on the shell. Only got about three uses on the AUTOLITE. Somehow over charged it???

Should be an interesting attempt but little at stake at this point ;)
Jeff Speegle

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Offline zray

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2012, 10:36:41 PM »
My repro Group 24F Autolite battery that was purchased by my restorer from Antique Auto battery in Ohio has started to fail....................."
If we can't use a jump start, or use a tender on these batteries what the heck can we do to preserve them when not in use?

Virginia Classic Mustang sells a repro Croup 24 battery, that is NOT the same battery sold by Antique Auto battery. I've been using one of them ever since my red top Optima died. It was 9 1/2 years old. You can use a battery tender with VCM repro battery.

Z.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 10:12:10 PM by zray »
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Offline C5ZZKGT

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2012, 12:20:05 PM »
Virginia Classic Mustang sells a repro Croup 24 battery, that is NOT the same battery sold by Antique Auto battery. I've been using one of them ever since my red top Optima died. It was 9 1/2 years old. You can you a battery tender with VCM repro battery.

Z.

The repro Autolite that Brant sells is the one made by Axiom Power that is supoesedly the old New Castle Battery, from what I've read the AP battery seems like a better build unit.

Anything new as far as a repro group 22 battery? would THEY REALLY SELL??

Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2012, 12:57:08 AM »
The repro Autolite that Brant sells is the one made by Axiom Power that is supoesedly the old New Castle Battery, from what I've read the AP battery seems like a better build unit.

Anything new as far as a repro group 22 battery? would THEY REALLY SELL??
Everyone keep asking suppliers for the 22F. If they see demand they might bring one to market quicker.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline C5ZZKGT

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2012, 01:50:37 AM »
What is the general thinking about the 22F battery.......was it REALLY "That" supplied in the '65-'66s?  I'm assuming all the 6 cylinder cars would have had it? What denoted an upgrade to the 24F?  GT? Hipo?  a/c? I wouldn't think that anything like a GT or Hipo would have come with a 22F...

Offline Pete Bush

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2012, 06:35:23 AM »
If I look at the Axiom site, it appears that their battery is a type of wet-cell battery - and not AGM at all. Can anyone confirm whether the reproduction Group 24 battery is wet-cell or AGM - as the charging technology is slightly different.
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Offline jwc66k

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2012, 06:07:06 PM »
What is the general thinking about the 22F battery.......was it REALLY "That" supplied in the '65-'66s?  I'm assuming all the 6 cylinder cars would have had it? What denoted an upgrade to the 24F?  GT? Hipo?  a/c? I wouldn't think that anything like a GT or Hipo would have come with a 22F...
The 22F (45amp, C5AF-10655-A) was the standard assembly line installed battery for all Mustangs (possibly all Fords) in 1965-66 including HP cars and GTs. The 24F (55amp, C5AF-10655-B, Mustang opt Z-106, O-106 ? for 65) was an option. Ford went as cheap as possible.
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Offline KevinK

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2012, 01:01:16 PM »
Optimia type charging:  Ctek makes a charger with a specific program for charging the Optimia battery.  The program is a snowflake picture.  I have yet to see another charger have that.  In fact, I discussed it with the Optimia manufacturer at Sema and they confirmed it.  I believe recharging a severly discharged battery is the only issue it is required for.
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Offline zray

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2013, 10:16:31 PM »
If I look at the Axiom site, it appears that their battery is a type of wet-cell battery - and not AGM at all. Can anyone confirm whether the reproduction Group 24 battery is wet-cell or AGM - as the charging technology is slightly different.

the VCM group 24 battery is AGM technology. I don't know the manufacturer of it.

Z.
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Offline Bob Gaines

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2013, 10:43:02 PM »
What is the general thinking about the 22F battery.......was it REALLY "That" supplied in the '65-'66s?  I'm assuming all the 6 cylinder cars would have had it? What denoted an upgrade to the 24F?  GT? Hipo?  a/c? I wouldn't think that anything like a GT or Hipo would have come with a 22F...
As has already been mentioned the 22F was the standard battery regardless if GT ,hipo etc. If you had A/C that option automatically upgraded the battery to a 24F.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby