Author Topic: Antique Battery  (Read 13812 times)

Offline C5ZZKGT

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Antique Battery
« on: November 27, 2012, 05:54:20 AM »
My repro Group 24F Autolite battery that was purchased by my restorer from Antique Auto battery in Ohio has started to fail.
I called AAB to check on any warranty, I have no paperwork on the battery because my restorer bought it.
They said I'd need to produce some type of paperwork to procede with any possible warranty issues.
I certainly understand that BUT:
It was found earlier in my car's restoration that you CANNOT jump-start these batteries (these are the dry batteries that some say are Optimas inside) due to some type of electricial device.
We also have a Chevy battery from AAB that WE bought in 2005 and have kept it on a tender ever since when not driving the car, which hasn't been much-the battery appears perfect.
The Autolite repro has been kept on a tender, but admitedly not as regular.
NOW AAB tells me that you should NOT use a tender on "these" batteries.
They also told me how to try & "reset" the battery by specificly discharging it to 7 volts and re-charging from there at specific rates.
If we can't use a jump start, or use a tender on these batteries what the heck can we do to preserve them when not in use?

Offline Pete Bush

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2012, 07:05:08 PM »
I bought a BatteryMinder. Check out the website:

http://batteryminders.com/static_page.php?nick=faq

And read the part about sulfation.
'66 6-cylinder Sprint Convertible
Metuchen - Scheduled May 10th; Built June 21st

Offline C5ZZKGT

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2012, 09:38:56 PM »
I bought a BatteryMinder. Check out the website:

http://batteryminders.com/static_page.php?nick=faq

And read the part about sulfation.

The batteries I'm refering to are NOT lead/acid, they are DRY batteries that I believe are Optimas inside the vintage-looking case.

I don't know what the right answer is, I just know what MY experiance has been with my 2

I can't see why a tender would hurt any battery-I CAN see how a jump-box or jumping from anouther vehicle could damage some sort of electricial device whatever that is, it can't be that darn secret can it??

Why does it take this special device to make the battery work? why can't they just put an Optima (IF thats what it is) inside the vintage-looking case and be done with it? can a regulation Optima NOT be jumped?

Offline Pete Bush

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2012, 10:07:35 PM »
There's allot of good information on the website.  Here's a quote:

Starter Battery - Sealed Gelled, AGM, or Dry (no filler caps -electrolyte is "non liquid")

    Much more expensive than non-sealed liquid type.
    Can be operated in any position without risk of spilling.
    Have a lower rate of self-discharge than non-sealed maintenance and/or maintenance-free (liquid) batteries.
    Are considerably more sensitive to overcharging and self-discharge, which can cause serious damage and shortened battery life.
    Recommended for applications where little or no checking and/or maintenance can easily be performed.

TIP 8: Consider the potential benefits vs. cost of these types before making a buying decision.
TIP 9: Check the output of your alternator/generator-voltage regulator settings before replacing your standard liquid type battery with any non-liquid sealed type to be sure your charging system does not overcharge it.
TIP 10: Never allow a sealed "non-liquid" battery to self-discharge below 11.5 volts or permanent damage can occur. Special charging equipment and/or procedures may be needed to recover sealed batteries that have been allowed to self-discharge below 11.5 volts.
TIP 11: To prevent self-discharge during periods of non-use/storage, maintain your battery using a constant voltage type charger with end of charge to prevent over / under charge.
TIP 12: Always use an accurate digital voltmeter or similar device to determine your sealed batteries true state-of-charge. Remember to let your battery "Rest" for 12 hours or longer before testing its voltage.
TIP 13: Knowing the exact voltage of your battery can help you to accurately determine it's state-of-health.

Voltages and Specific Gravity (s.g.) of battery at various levels of charge:
Voltage    S.G.       Capacity
12.6 - 12.8    1.265 s.g.    =    100% Charged
12.4 - 12.6    1.225 s.g.    =    75% - 100%
12.2 - 12.4    1.190 s.g.    =    50% - 75%
12.0 - 12.2    1.155 s.g.    =    25% - 50%
11.7 - 12.0    1.120 s.g.    =    0% - 25%
'66 6-cylinder Sprint Convertible
Metuchen - Scheduled May 10th; Built June 21st

Offline bryancobb

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2012, 07:30:42 AM »
I can tell by the characteristics you guys describe above, the guts of these batteries are most-likely NiCd, or NiCad's.  For eons we used these in our high-dollar RC aircraft.  The stakes were pretty high so there was a large demand for chargers with a BRAIN!

Using these without problems required a pretty deep knowledge of their "personality" and how to keep them happy.  It seems to me, that if these repops are indeed NiCd based, the charging system when the engine is running and the system when the car is parked, must both have a brain.  The brain has 4 tasks to handle.

* Detect/Know the current state of charge before any current is allowed to go in
* Charge at no faster than the rate of C/10 until very near full capacity and case temperature rises slightly
* Automatically switch to the trickle rate of C/50 at any time the battery is full or very near full.
* Never let the battery be discharged below a critical voltage? (on RC aircraft, that was 1.1 VDC per cell)

The brain most RC'ers used was called an ACE Digipace.  When you came home from a day of flying, you connect your batteries and activate the digipace.  It would apply an appropriate load and start a timer.  When only 1.1 VDC per cell was reached, the timer stopped counting.  THIS ESTABLISHED THE STATE OF CHARGE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE CYCLE, AND IT ESTABLISHED A 1.1 PER CELL BASELINE BEFORE FILLUP.

Then it automatically switched to C/10 charge rate and when it detected a decrease in current flow into the batteries, (this corresponds with a rise in battery temperature) it would switch to C/50.

IF YOU EVER USED THE BATTERIES DOWN BELOW 1.1 VDC PER CELL, YOU RAN THE RISK THAT 1 OR MORE CELLS WOULD REVERSE POLARITY AND THE PACK WOULD BE RUINED.  ALSO IF YOU EVER CHARGED AT C/10 FOR ANY APPRECIABLE LENGTH OF TIME AFTER THE PACK WAS FULL, YOU RISKED RUINING IT.

« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 07:39:21 AM by bryancobb »
66 Metuch Conv
Nightmist, Std Blu Int
6T08C223904    76A       K         22       15c     21      6        6
                      BODY  COLOR   TRIM    DATE   DSO   AXLE  XMSN
   C/O  785                                   (rotation #)
   16    C14   6T08C223904        (weld bay 16, bucked MAR 14)

Offline CharlesTurner

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2012, 09:54:32 AM »
Thanks for this very useful info Bryan!
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
Concours Mustang Forum Admin

Offline bryancobb

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2012, 02:23:36 PM »
Glad to present what I know.  Not too often do I know anything to present!

Oh ...I forgot to mention M E M O R Y...If you didn't have a Digipace, and you had your batteries full charged before going flying every time, and if for instance you usually only flew enough to use 30% of the charge, a bad problem would crop up.

Let's say you used 30% and recharged 50 times in the course of a year.  If then one day you flew A LOT, when you got below that 30% point, voltage would fall off very fast to dead, and you'd crash.  That's NiCd memory.
The Digipace kept that memory from forming by deep-discharging the batteries after every weekend of flying.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 02:31:21 PM by bryancobb »
66 Metuch Conv
Nightmist, Std Blu Int
6T08C223904    76A       K         22       15c     21      6        6
                      BODY  COLOR   TRIM    DATE   DSO   AXLE  XMSN
   C/O  785                                   (rotation #)
   16    C14   6T08C223904        (weld bay 16, bucked MAR 14)

Offline Pete Bush

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2012, 06:29:20 PM »
If the battery that we're talking about is an Optima, I believe that's a different technology than NiCd.
Optima batteries are AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) type of batteries. The sulfuric acid and electrolyte are tightly wound in the mat.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/electrical/optima-batteries.jsp?intcmp=..
'66 6-cylinder Sprint Convertible
Metuchen - Scheduled May 10th; Built June 21st

Offline Pete Bush

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2012, 08:44:33 PM »
Here's a tip from Hot Rod magazine: Tie a couple of batteries in parallel and bring the one that won't take a charge up to an acceptable baseline where it'll then take a charge on its own.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/general/hrdp_1009_how_to_charge_a_agm_battery/viewall.html
'66 6-cylinder Sprint Convertible
Metuchen - Scheduled May 10th; Built June 21st

Offline bryancobb

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2012, 10:27:17 AM »
If the battery that we're talking about is an Optima, I believe that's a different technology than NiCd.
Optima batteries are AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) type of batteries. The sulfuric acid and electrolyte are tightly wound in the mat.

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/electrical/optima-batteries.jsp?intcmp=..

If that's the case, then disregard my NiCd discussions.  It just sounded like the info was pointing toward NiCd's.
66 Metuch Conv
Nightmist, Std Blu Int
6T08C223904    76A       K         22       15c     21      6        6
                      BODY  COLOR   TRIM    DATE   DSO   AXLE  XMSN
   C/O  785                                   (rotation #)
   16    C14   6T08C223904        (weld bay 16, bucked MAR 14)

Offline JKWilson

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2012, 03:31:08 AM »
I've been following this thread for awhile now and have read some interesting, albeit misguided information regarding batteries in general. I have a few questions/comments about the original post though. After reading a thread posted elsewhere today by the OP, you stated your resto was done 4 years ago. Why would you look any further into a warranty on your battery? The AAB website clearly states their batteries are warrantied for 4 years. Do you know which version of battery your restorer purchased from AAB? They offered Autolite group 24 batteries in standard lead/acid and now in AGM ("maintenance free"), versions. Just to be clear though, BOTH are lead/acid batteries.

The standard life of a lead/acid battery is 3 years...period. Batteries are offered for "longer life" than this, but all you are actually paying for is a warranty (prorated no less!) which covers a greater period. Some batteries last less time, and are cheaper, due to being constructed of cheaper materials. Before anyone pipes up and posts about their battery lasting X number of years longer, you're absolutely correct. I have the factory original Motorcraft battery in my truck that's now 11 years old. ANY time after 3 years is simply "borrowed time". It's been helped along though through proper maintenance.

Now to clarify a few myths. AGM batteries ARE lead/acid batteries. They have lead plates and are filled with sulfuric acid as the electrolyte. Some of the differences between them and a standard lead/acid battery are:
1) There is less acid in an AGM battery
2) AGM batteries are not free venting. This is notable for restored cars because there is less corrosive vapors emanating from the battery which could cause damage/corrosion. Take note I said LESS venting. AGM batteries have a vent and DO vent. The vent is a one way pressure relief design though, as opposed to a "free air" vent in a standard lead/acid battery. If a lead/acid battery was not vented it would develop enough gas pressure from recharging to rupture the case. AGM's vent VERY little though due to the design and amount of acid in them.
3) AGM batteries are less prone to failure due to shock (physical not electrical), and vibration.

The discharge rates of standard and AGM batteries is very similar. The RECHARGE rates are different though, with a greater recharge period required for an AGM. They CAN be recharged, they CAN be kept on a float charger and they CAN be jumped. There are no magic hocus pocus electronics inside them either. I've read through some of the claims that manufacturers make regarding their products, batteries and chargers alike. Optima claims up to 5x greater battery life. Over what?! A cheap battery? Sure, they use better materials. Battery chargers can vary, but it's in how much and how high a charge rate is delivered and over what duration. Reading through some claims is like reading a snake oil bottle. If you know about batteries and the chemistry involved you can quickly read through the contradictions or "better than" claims in order to see they are functioning as any good charger (constant or float), should.

A VERY basic explanation of how a lead/acid battery works is as follows; lead plates are suspended in a non-conductive acid proof case. There are two sets of plates with non-conductive separators between them. One set of plates is the anode and the other the cathode (positive and negative sides). The lead is not a plain piece of lead. It's a specific type of porous lead known as sponge lead. The electrolyte is sulfuric acid (H2SO4). The chemical reaction between the electrolyte and the lead plates creates an electrical charge (voltage). As the charge is created and used, the resulting reaction (basically) draws the acid out of solution and into the plates. If you were to measure the pH of new sulfuric acid and then compare it to a fully discharged battery, you would see a lower pH in the the discharged battery. That's because your reading (again, basically), is water. When the battery is charging the electrical input TO the plates forces the acids back into solution. Basically it "mixes, if you will, the acid back into the water. A byproduct of this charging reaction is the formation of gas, hydrogen gas to be more specific, and vaporization of some of the water. When the water is vaporized through charging, there is less "solution" for the acids to be forced back into and it remains in the plates. That's why after initially filling a new (non-AGM) battery with sulfuric acid you only top it back up with straight water. You are replacing what was lost....water. Through time salts will remain on/in the plates. This is what sulfation is. It is also UNAVOIDABLE. PREMATURE sulfation can be avoided with proper maintenance. AGM batteries are not as prone to it either due to their design/construction. The other thing that eventually kills a battery is deterioration of the lead plates. As they deteriorate through use/time they slowly break down, forming a lead "sludge" (for lack of a better term), in the bottom of the case. This "sludge" can build to the point it comes in contact with the bottoms of the suspended plates. The plates are then shorted out, effectively "killing" that cell. That, in a nutshell, is a VERY simplistic explanation of how a lead/acid battery functions.

Another thing I'd like to mention is charging. Fast charging is harmful to the life of a battery.....ANY battery. It increases the chemically induced deterioration of the battery. It also boils off the electrolyte. This is HIGHLY critical in an AGM battery due to it having less electrolyte in it. Keep in mind also it increases the formation of gas...hydrogen gas. Which is, if you remember your high school chemistry class, HIGHLY explosive! With a charger attached via clamps, NEVER remove the clamps from the battery before unplugging the charger first. The resulting spark could ignite any hydrogen gas lingering. Prolonged constant charging can also force the battery into a thermal runaway. Charging causes an exothermic reaction, e.g. generates heat. Just feel the sides of a charging battery. Lead/acid batteries are not as sensitive to it as Ni-Cad batteries are during charge/discharge, but it something to monitor. Again, this is a bad thing, not only for the life of the battery but also for safety. It should be mentioned, always check the fluid levels PRIOR to charging. After charging and a brief cool down period, check and service again if necessary. If a proper charge rate was applied, you should have minimal fluid loss though. Always service with distilled water to avoid chemical/mineral contamination of the electrolyte.

Also worth mentioning is "maintenance free" batteries (excluding AGM or Gel types). Bottom line, they AREN'T! They are free venting just like "normal" lead/acid" batteries. They require the electrolyte to be brought back up. No caps you say? Wrong! If you ever examine the tops of them you'll see a very thin line in a rectangular shape. This is a cover plate that is snapped onto the top. It is removable and will reveal access to the cells. Some cover recessed individual caps for each cell and some have molded on "plugs" along the length for each cell. Simply service the battery and snap the cover back in place. There are a few brands/models that are molded closed and are truly NOT serviceable, but most are.

I know this was a lengthy post, but I felt it was subject that needed to be clarified. If you're interested in HOW an AGM is constructed and chemically  reacts (slightly) different than a regular lead/acid battery, just Google AGM battery. Don't go to a manufacturer's page, but a straight reference page. You avoid all the "claims" this way for a truer explanation. I hesitate to mention Wikipedia because some folks feel it's primarily hogwash. There are many reliable reference sites though.

BTW, I spent 15 years as an aviation electrician. Not only did we maintain the electrical systems, but we had to maintain all of the power sources, including batteries (lead/acid and NiCad). As such we received formal training in their construction, maintenance and function. If there's any furthr questions regarding this subject that I can help with, please feel free to ask. If I can provide an answer I'd be happy to help.

p.s. To the OP, it sounds like it's time for a new battery, plain and simple!
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Offline Pete Bush

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2012, 06:32:24 AM »
Thanks for the detailed explanation!

Can you talk about sulfation a little more. I understand the effects can be reversed by the use of a "smart charger" that uses electronic pulse.
'66 6-cylinder Sprint Convertible
Metuchen - Scheduled May 10th; Built June 21st

Offline C5ZZKGT

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2012, 10:44:11 AM »
Yes, Thank you JK for the in-depth explanation.
I was just asking about the warranty, didn't really think there could be much left if any.
I have a local contact that is able to successfully open and then re-seal batteries in general, I am in talks with them to open up my current Autolite repro battery and see just exactly what IS inside, and hopefully put something else in there cheaper that buying a new repro battery.
I' m thinking possibly a group 22F battery will fit inside the group 24F case but not 100% positive.
-Some folks are thinking/saying there is a small electric wheelchair battery inside the AAB battery which IS a DEEP CYCLE unit.....

Offline jwc66k

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2012, 12:31:39 PM »
Excellent explanation and some great answers to clarify what may or may not be a good product, but -
The standard life of a lead/acid battery is 3 years...period.
The battery on my 1999 Ford E250 lasted over 11 years. It was factory installed. As to foreign cars, my neighbor replaced the factory battery in his 2003 Hyundai a couple of weeks ago only because it was over 10 years old and he had the money. I would assume that many other "long lived battery" tales exist. On the other hand, of all the repro Autolite red top batteries I've had over the last 25 years installed in my four Mustangs, they pretty much all died after about five years. I currently use what will fit.
Jim
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Offline sparky65

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Re: Antique Battery
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2012, 01:00:26 AM »
JKWilson has it right.  Don't charge the battery with too much current or too high of a voltage or for too long.  If I remember correctly the AAB recommends no higher then 14.4V and max of 10 A.  This is why they dont recommend jump starting, to much current.  Also temperature is important.  At high temperatures you need to reduce your charging voltage.  Don't drain the battery to low and dont leave a battery sit that isn't fully charged.  All these things will keep your battery from failing early.

As far as float chargers I am still not 100% sure of the best method and if the best method worth it.  It is my understanding that a float charger is good in that it will prevent an unused battery from self discharging.  The float voltage has to be low enough that the battery takes almost no current so that it doesn't gas off. However at this float voltage there is insufficient current flow for a good chemical reaction in the battery and that the battery may not truly be fully charged.  A better method would be to occasionally switch to a higher charging voltage to allow for higher current flow for some period of time and then go back to a float charge.  This is where some chargers claim to "pulse" batteries.  I am not sure what pulse duration they use but I think pulse times could vary from as long as 2 or 3 hours to as short as 10 seconds.   Really I think you can do the same thing with a cheap float charger by starting your car and letting it run for an hour once every two or three weeks.  Not really sure how much extra time any of this buys you.  Batteries just dont seem to last as long as they should, I would guess the average battery life is 3-5 years.

Steve
1967 Pebble Beige  I6 Coupe built in Metuchen on Oct 26, 1966.
2009 Black GT Coupe