Topic: What does Concours restored mean, exactly?

[tim_morrison82]

In Australia, the judging is  totally different, its all about what options were available at the time. So people can put duel exhast in single exhaust cars, as long as it looks like a factory installation.

They do require cars to be road registered, and all lights, horn, accessories and lights are checked. Im no judging expert yet, but hope to be

[krelboyne]

Tough question. You could ask three different people and get three differenent answers. Those same three people probably would have had, totally different answers 30 years ago.

Old timers used to tell me that Concours restorations used to mean 'restored to factory specifications, using all original or NOS parts'.

Today, you can literally create one of these cars from thin air, all with aftermarket parts.

From observations at recent car shows, a Concours restoration has come to be defined as: Better in appearance than was ever capable by the factory. Modern paint finishes, without drips, runs, or orange peel (even in the engine bay). Perfectly installed decals (including "Caution Fan"), part numbers stamped on hoses all perfectly printed so that they give the best presentation and visibility. And, it must have those white, square, alphabet letter inspection stickers, plastered all over the engine bay. 

I say this all tongue in cheek, and mean no disrespect. But there is truth to my words. LOL

[J_Speegle]

..........From observations at recent car shows, a Concours restoration has come to be defined as: ..................

Just need to get out more LOL - or at least to better shows   Yes there are those examples at many shows but we're trying to change what we can and in turn that is one of the reasons for this site   

[priceless]

  Yes there are those examples at many shows but we're trying to change what we can and in turn that is one of the reasons for this site   

Jeff, It's nothing what you or this site is doing or not doing, it's just that the judging has evolved, but, slightly toward the down side.  I'm seeing judges counting off points left and right for "stuff" that 10 years ago wouldn't be counted off for.....i.e.,,hood latch bolts turned in and not out, not the EXACT match sheen the color(any color) should be, phosphated parts not chemically done like the factory done them, original parts that came on the Mustang that don't look brand new, Here's one....not the "right amount" of sound deadener on certain areas of the Mustang, not the "right amount" of overspray...What is the right amount? What is the EXACT match color or EXACTLY the way the factory done it? etc,etc,......People are saying that MCA judges are getting too "Nick Pickey", and alot of Gung Ho judges are critiqueing these cars WAY too much and marking points off instead of making a note on the comment column.  And people that came once to an MCA National and got butchered on their judging sheets are not coming back( for instance, a friend of mine, who's been an MCA member since 1991 but only got involved, and is very knowledgeable, in showing in 2010(Biltmore), but unfortunately that was his last).

All this I'm talking about refers to Concours Driven and at a few points, Concours trailered(cause there are a difference).

 I thumb through some of my old Judging rulebooks that I have kept since 1988 until now, and I have certainly seen judging evolve differently than I would've ever expected and I've been around this 26 years now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm with Krelboyne, I say this tongue in cheek and mean no disrespect, but there is truth to what we're saying.

[CharlesTurner]

Many judges and owners have done extensive research to improve the rules over the years, which is how it should be.  It is only natural that the level of restorations have improved over the years also, which in turn raises the judging standard.  They judged the way they did in 1988 because that's all they knew back then.  Mustangs were still cheap cars that had been mass-produced and really weren't worth the money to invest a tremendous amount of restoration dollars into.  A lot of the restoration techniques that are being recommended today were already being done by the Corvette crowd and other higher end marque owners way back 20+ years ago. 

Concours is not for everyone and some don't find out until later that it isn't for them.  The goal of judging is to help owner's improve the restoration or preservation level of their car.  This philosophy had been heavily imposed upon MCA judges the past 5-10 years.  I think if you were to sample judging sheets from the most recent times, you would see there are many notes written on the judging sheets without a deduction.

While I respect that you have "26" years of being involved, please do not disrespect the amount of time many others have invested in the hobby and clubs like MCA.  Remember that we all can choose what we want to do with the hobby.  If owner's are saying MCA judges are being too nit-picky, then maybe showing in MCA is not for them.  Nothing is forcing them to attend the shows. 

[priceless]

.....While I respect that you have "26" years of being involved, please do not disrespect the amount of time many others have invested in the hobby and clubs like MCA.

Charles, read my last sentence again....I said I "mean no disrespect". Have no clue why you put..."please do not disrespect the amount........." And, I am very proud of my 26 years as an MCA member and "judge" myself and wouldn't trade it for anything.  It's like my response said, " There is TRUTH in what we're saying", and I believe you and I, along with everyone else here, know that.....All I need to say.

[J_Speegle]

.................People are saying that MCA judges are getting too "Nick Pickey", and allot of Gung Ho judges are critiquing these cars WAY too much and marking points off instead of making a note on the comment column.  And people that came once to an MCA National and got butchered on their judging sheets are not coming back( for instance, a friend of mine, who's been an MCA member since 1991 but only got involved, and is very knowledgeable, in showing in 2010(Biltmore), but unfortunately that was his last).

Since you've been around a long time you should recall that "they" (some owners) have always complained that judges are too picky its nothing new and IMHO not a reason for judges to change by itself. They did in 1984 and there are some around today I believe. There seems to always be those - the  "public school system owners" that believe that they deserve the top award, not because they earned it but simply because they spent allot of time and money on the car. We've learned (or at least should have after all these years) that we can not make everyone happy and that with each that does not return one or more replaces them at the next show. Entries have been pretty even for over twenty years given differences between regions of the country that MCA conducts shows in.

It's always been a rhetorical question in teaching circles - Is it really a test if everyone that shows up gets an A, just for showing up? 

Bottom line unless you made some really poor choices with the car early on just about every car can be improved and can win a Gold at a National show IF the owner wants to do it. We're (at least all of us on this site I believe) here to help anyway we can to get them there.

All this I'm talking about refers to Concours Driven and at a few points, Concours trailered(cause there are a difference).

Consider that except for a few different parts that are allowed in Driven Concours  (tires, shocks....) the "differences" in wear and usage are built into  a lower standard in the rules so judges do not have to change their expectations and standards as they shift from one class to another during the show day.

I thumb through some of my old Judging rulebooks that I have kept since 1988 until now, and I have certainly seen judging evolve differently than I would've ever expected and I've been around this 26 years now.

Did you expect standards to lessen over the years? Or a trend to less detailed judging sheets?  We often council to build your car to where the hobby is going rather than to where it is in order to show it longer and in turn improve the hobby.

26 years ago I would have never imagined that access to so much knowledge and help would be available to every Mustang and Shelby owner. I would have never thought that the rules would reflect so many judges input, unlike 20 years ago when often the rules were one persons opinion - that was the law. The changes/progress has been amazing in many ways and even though I've reached the age where typically we find that change is fought and discouraged I see the benefit to those that are new to the hobby as well as those that have been around along time 


Don't get me wrong, I'm with Krelboyne, I say this tongue in cheek and mean no disrespect, but there is truth to what we're saying.
[/quote]

I took his point to be that cars have developed to where the paint jobs and other details were so much better than originally and to that point I agree that we often see over restored cars at shows. Often we also see these cars getting deductions for doing this. The whole paint issue is another can of worms as governments around the country outlaw different processes and products needed to return these cars to original. In my area water base paints are the standard and I've yet to figure out how to do oversprays in the wheelwell and undercarriages with this stuff. The judging community is struggling IMHO on how to address that was we go forward. 

I too shutter every time I see a "dipped in plastic" deep deep paint job on a restored car at a show. We put the orange peel rule in place - what else should be done?  Add more points for a deduction?  Require that a percentage of each panel have measurable orange peel?

Sure the head judges (as well as others) are open for input.

[krelboyne]

I am not currently a member of the MCA, so bear with me.

What is the process for establishing judging standards? Do you use the rule "How the factory intended for a car to be built"? or are we using examples of cars found to be authentic?

I know that Jeff is diligent about documenting components by manufacturing date and factory. Is all of this criteria considered for judging standards, or changes to judging standards? Meaning that there are specific rules for each of the 3 Mustang factories and cutoff dates for certain aspects of components. Components provided by suppliers, running changes, etc.

[CharlesTurner]

The MCA definition for concours is the condition of the car as it was delivered new to the original owner.  With that, some over-the-counter dealer accessories are allowed... within reason. 

Appreciate Jeff's reply, he has more experience in judging than anyone else I know.  If anyone can give an accurate outlook on how things have changed over the years, it would be him.

[ruppstang]

I am a new be at 18 years in the MCA compaired to some others here but here is my opinion. The assembly manuals were used as a guide as to how Ford wanted the cars to be produced. Yes we do take in account for different practices at each assembly plant,  also running changes and component date changes. We also look a unrestored cars for conformation of the rules and make adjustments accordingly. I have been a 67-68 Gold Card judge for a number of years and still learn things at nearly every show. I must say a lot of this is written it the rules, but a lot is not or each section would be voluminous.  It is difficult to keep track of all of this when you have 8 cars to judge in 5 hours. This can be a challenge. Mistakes are made but what we must remember is we are all hobbyist that are human not computers. So the next time you believe that a error was made on your judging sheet call the judge, he needs to know if he was wrong. Who knows you might learn something too and is isn't that what it is all about. Marty Rupp MCA 38812

[priceless]

We are all humans and definitely will have a wide variety of  opinions/answers,,,Thanks for all of them, and have a good day

[CharlesTurner]

Agree with Marty regarding the assembly manuals.  The most important thing that is regularly stressed regarding them is that they were simply a snapshot of a time in production.  There could be assembly drawings before or after at any point in time as changes were made quite often.  To use them explicitly will generally get folks in trouble during a restoration.  I find myself using them mostly for fastener numbers and finishes, but even then I know there can be exceptions.  They can be a great resource when used properly.

To restore a car to the most authentic period-correct condition takes a huge undertaking of time to learn all the details.  Honestly, it gets down to studying a 1-3 month time period at the assembly plant where a car was made.  Gathering details usually comes by looking at a sampling of cars built in the same time period.  Even restored cars can yield little details which might be helpful later on.  Generally a few unrestored samples can be found, which also contribute greatly to getting everything right.  Of course, starting with a nice car to begin with will only make things easier also.

Unfortunately, to document all these details would be a huge undertaking that I don't know could ever be completed.  One could spend a lifetime just documenting fasteners.  Thankfully, there are folks out there, a lot of them judges, who have put in the time to study the obscure details and can help others improve the authenticity of their cars.

[Pete Bush]

Unfortunately, to document all these details would be a huge undertaking that I don't know could ever be completed.  One could spend a lifetime just documenting fasteners.  Thankfully, there are folks out there, a lot of them judges, who have put in the time to study the obscure details and can help others improve the authenticity of their cars.

I'm not an MCA member, but I'd like to say that this site goes a long way in providing that documentation. And it advances daily!

Bit by bit pieces of information that may exist only in minds scattered all over the country (and otherwise inaccessible to a sincere hobbyist) are communicated to this site; adding real depth to an ever expanding knowledge base. I'd like to say thank you to all that contribute!

[J_Speegle]

I am not currently a member of the MCA, so bear with me.

What is the process for establishing judging standards? Do you use the rule "How the factory intended for a car to be built"? or are we using examples of cars found to be authentic?

Getting a bit off thread but we'll see where this goes, but I know someone that can separate this off into a new thread

I guess by "standards" your referring to the "rules". The rules have been established by review, input and improvement for about 30 yrs. Originally MCA set up a set of rules for the early cars and increased the years covered as the years progressed with the newer cars being allow to compete over time. In the late 70's a set of the Vintage Mustang rules from CA were incorporated into the MCA sheets in an effort to improve flow and some of the information, with great success. But since the club was still centered in the Eastern US the rules typically reflected what was done at Dearborn and NJ - ignoring San Jose pretty much but their percentage of the whole, was fairly small except for the Shelby's that were shown.

In the early years all early car classes (65-73) used one set of sheets and they were pretty generic since they had to serve many years and classes. In the 90's MCA choose to create separate sheets for each class - this allow for allot more specific (to the years and models) details to be written into the rules at that point.

As for the past and continuing development of rules - MCA is one of the few national clubs (to my knowledge) that allows participation in an annual judges meeting of any member in good standing - you don't have to be a judge to present findings or opinions. The suggested changes are discussed and evaluated in small groups, then the final changes for the up coming year (rules and procedures) are presented to the national elected board for approval. After that the next years rules are published for members and judges to use in preparation for the next years show season.

MCA has always been an accommodating club - almost IMHO to a fault. Making classes for just about every car and every owners selection of usage. At MCA, currently, entries can choose to present the car as " as it was delivered to the dealership" or "as it could have been delivered to the first customer. "

Are we, as judges, looking for cars built as "how Ford wanted them to be built"?  It depends (sorry for the non-direct answer but its not always a simple one)  With all the millions of cars built the is a good chance IMHO that many were assembled as Ford want them to be built. At the same time there were many that were built with some flaws. We understand today that many of the cars people start out with (for a restoration) are not really original cars so they lack any or allot details  left from how it was originally built. For those owners there is no justification to create or reproduce a flaw since they can't show that their car ever had such a feature while others that start out with a nice original car have the option to recreate or leave what they found on their car if they can provide the documentation for the item. Believe me, the judges that are working to advance the hobby and the club are not looking for cookie cutter cars from it - but the excuse for poor workmanship in some cases found on show cars can not be placed on Ford workers with the simple claim - "you know none of these cars were perfect"

I know that Jeff is diligent about documenting components by manufacturing date and factory. Is all of this criteria considered for judging standards, or changes to judging standards? Meaning that there are specific rules for each of the 3 Mustang factories and cutoff dates for certain aspects of components. Components provided by suppliers, running changes, etc.

Yes the differences between early and late as well as plant to plant are much more important and considered than any time in the past. Are we at the finish line yet??? No - far from it, but we have a goal and something to work towards. The rules lack enough guidance and details, currently, for specific plant.  Having attended the vast majority (think I missed two in the last 27 yrs) allot of concern in changing/improving  the rules relates to how the changes will effect current show cars rather than the ones being built at the time. Also some equate adding details to the judging sheets as part of the "being too picky" mindset. So for some - more details as to how the cars were built is a negative

We, IMHO, need to do more but we have to figure out how to communicate this to the judges and builders of the cars in an organized manner outside of the printed judging sheets. One idea that has been discussed is using the judging sheets as a frame work - adding more detail (by plant and time period) as well as pictures. There are other ideas in addition to that one.

I'm always reminded that the organization is volunteer organization and the job is too big.  I accept that its a big job but I guess I don't feel its one that can not be accomplished since I can look back and realize that if we had simply started building years ago when I started with MCA and only completed 5% a year, it (what ever we choose to do)  would have been completed in 2004 and MCA would currently be working on the revision.

As with all organizations (the bigger the harder it seems to be) it's hard to get things done at times since changes effect more people and typically the people are more entrenched in the status quo. But many here are working towards the goal with the time they donate here and elsewhere, each understanding that its not the individual that accomplishes the work or goal but its the group.

To that I would like to thank all the participate here and elsewhere to advance the hobby and the standard to one that we can be proud of - THANK EACH OF YOU.

PS - sorry for the long soap box speech but I hope this communicates my experiences well enough to be understood. Been a long day

[jwc66k]

Originally MCA set up a set of rules for the early cars and increased the years covered as the years progressed with the newer cars being allow to compete over time. In the late 70's a set of the Vintage Mustang rules from CA were incorporated into the MCA sheets in an effort to improve flow and some of the information, with great success.

Thanks for the plug, Jeff. It's the "Vintage Mustang Owners Association" located in the San Jose, CA area (meeting currently at Sunnvale Ford) and the club is still in operation. The irony is that when the VMOA has a judged event, we now use MCA rules.

PS - sorry for the long soap box speech but I hope this communicates my experiences well enough to be understood. Been a long day

You, on your "soap box", or prowling junk yards with a camera in hand, or commenting on cars with owners at car shows, have been more helpful to this hobby than you or a lot of others can imagine.
Thanks
Jim
MCA 28774