Topic: What does Concours restored mean, exactly?

[CharlesTurner]

On the MCA forum on the Judges only section I started a thread about a truly grand Grand  National Show with the best of the best cars shown on a earlier day. Might think of bringing  the Tech inspection back for those cars. But it all is in the dreaming stage now. Marty

Think that's been in the dreaming stage for the past 10+ years!

[J_Speegle]

Guys, Thanks for all the replies and comments so far.
I'm just curious as to what one can/should expect when having a car restored professionally to concours trailered MCA specs?.....

We see this claim all the time "restored to MCA Concours Gold standard"  I suggest this means little until the car is put up into a class and evaluated and receives such a reward. Until that its like raising a horse that should win the Kentucky Derby Or raising a child that should be able to get into Standford - but hasn't applied .... you get the idea

[priceless]

  Even at MCA there are judges who are not clear on what the MCA definition is, even though it's stated plainly in the MCA rulebook.

  LOL....yea, I agree with that statement 100%.

By the way, where is that definition of "concours" on the MCA web site. I looked under MCA rules/judging and didn't find a definition of "concours". All classes have their own rules even thoroughbred, unrestored and also conservator has written rules, but didn't find a definiton of "concours" in the rules section.   

[PerkinsRestoration]

We see this claim all the time "restored to MCA Concours Gold standard"  I suggest this means little until the car is put up into a class and evaluated and receives such a reward. Until that its like raising a horse that should win the Kentucky Derby Or raising a child that should be able to get into Standford - but hasn't applied .... you get the idea

 I agree with Jeff, same thing with Thoroughbred and Unrestored classes. MCA Concours Gold standard unlike Thoroughbred or Unrestored class has deteriorated to the extent the award has little clout compared to days gone by. Accepting color changes , interior upgrades, Taiwan sheetmetal etc. has greatly diminished the class to mean nothing more than the car is complete according to the repop door tag with fairly good workmanship. Not really fair to compare the numbers matching red GT to a color change non GT that receives a MCA concours Gold  award that ends up for sale 6 mos. later at BJ. Please don't think I'm bashing the really good cars in trailered concours as there are many. I'm just trying to show there is a wide range in the quality of cars that are MCA concours Gold award winners. I'm more concerned about the repop door tag than a burned out turn signal bulb.

[CharlesTurner]

By the way, where is that definition of "concours" on the MCA web site. I looked under MCA rules/judging and didn't find a definition of "concours". All classes have their own rules even thoroughbred, unrestored and also conservator has written rules, but didn't find a definiton of "concours" in the rules section.   

http://www.mustang.org/content.php/185-Mustang-Judging-Rules

Classification document

[TLea]

In SAAC and Mid America we have complete operational check except wipers and cig lighters.  Lot of cars lose points for things like no functioning fly aways and sequentials

[BigB427]

I've been to a few concours shows over the years and have seen some truly remarkable cars.  Some of those cars can truly be called "works of art".  I have never restored a car to that level doing the work myself personally, but I do understand the amount of time and effort that goes into doing one.  Even with that taken into consideration, I believe one cannot forget the fact that these "works of art" were born as automobiles that were designed to be driven. If one claims to have done a complete restoration on a car and it won't start & run and/or all the accessories don't operate how can you call that a restoration? It's been my understanding that the goal of concours was to judge the vehicle to the standard of that which it was brand new and delivered to dealerships. Am I wrong?  I understand people wanting to preserve their cars after so much work and money has been put into them, but come on - they are cars after all, they should start, run, and operate as a car should. I'm all for the operational check, and think it should be mandatory at all concours events, in all clubs, for all makes/models. I also don't for the life of me understand why a color change would be allowed in a concours show - that's a new one on me, I've never heard of that.

[jwc66k]

If it's bright and shiny it may be "over-restored". Chevy guys are good at that.
Jim

[midlife]

In SAAC and Mid America we have complete operational check except wipers and cig lighters.  Lot of cars lose points for things like no functioning fly aways and sequentials

What in the world is a "fly away"?

[carlite65]

tilt-away steering column........you knew that!

[priceless]

http://www.mustang.org/content.php/185-Mustang-Judging-Rules

Classification document

i completely looked over that document, i do remember seeing it now in the past.

[C5ZZKGT]

Again, All said and done my understanding is that in Concours Trailered that the MCA wants the cars in "as delivered" condition, and last I knew when a person bought a new car from the dealer it could be started and driven anywhere daytime, night time, rain, cold, ect-meaning all the lights including the dash/instrument lights would work properly, the wipers would work, the heater, brakes, ect, ect
For example MY car was taken to a FORD dealer when the restoration was finished to have the front end alligned, electricial system checked-they alligned the front end and checked the electricial system and was rendered road ready.
MY car was delivered to me with the wires crossed on the rh parking/turn signal light so neither worked right, 1/2 of the dash lights didn't work, 3 of 4 guages didn't work, amp guage read backwards, steering wheel was crooked.
Then well after the fact I received a letter from my restorer telling me that due to use of reproduction parts used in the steering and suspension that these parts could fail and cause an accident-never have heard that a FORD dealer sent any original owners letters like this.......I assumed that due to the magnatude of my car's restoration that it would be a safe, road-ready car that could be driven if I so desired.
I just wonder if anyone else has personal experiance with having a car professionally restored and ended up with driveability problems like I encountered?

[CharlesTurner]

For judging purposes only does the MCA definition of concours apply.  It has little to do with functionality of the car other than opening/closing of body panels.  Unfortunately, there are probably quite a few MCA concours winning cars that have small to big issues, especially concerning drive-ability.

As mentioned previously, the final expectations of the car as completed by the restoration shop should have been agreed to in a contract, signed by the car owner and shop owner.  That is the only document that would have legal ground.  If there was a contract and it just stated "MCA concours level", then unfortunately, that is too vague and should not have been accepted as a "standard", unless you simply wanted the car to be Gold level in judging. 

I think we all know what the expectations should be by a professional restoration shop, you should have received a 100% complete and functioning car.  Most of the things you mentioned aren't very difficult to fix, but I can totally understand your concerns.

[svo2scj]

I just wonder if anyone else has personal experiance with having a car professionally restored and ended up with driveability problems like I encountered?

I don't think my comments -about "concours restored" apply to this thread anymore !   Looks like this is a disagreement between MULTIPLE parties - none of which will own up to who is at fault.   (SNL -REALLY skit comes to mind)

My guess is your issue is "the money" you have spent.   Their defense is "I didn't do that work".   Many here comment at the highest level of restoration contracting.  When presented with anything but that - comments will drop off.  People that don't deal with repro parts - have only heard stories. 

It always comes down to money !   Money either not spent up front or Mo Money , MO Money MO MONEY !  If I took a car to a dealer (any) for an alignment - I too would expect not just specs to be correct but the wheel to be RECENTERED.

Mark
P.S.  Can "letters" going back and forth - be a good sign?   

[rayms69]

it means frickin expensive and not done with cheap reproduction parts, haha