Topic: Why Doesn't Somebody -

[jwc66k]

Why doesn’t somebody make this?
I’ve asked about a couple of Mustang parts with respect to sources or is there a plan to reproduce them. The answers I got were not positive so I made a list of items that need to be reproduced. This is what I’ve come up with including reference pages to get an idea what the item is. Feel free to add to the list.
1. The rubber bumper inside the 64-66 door latch assembly (latch p/ns C4VB-5321812 & ..13, C6ZB-6521812 & ..13, C4SZ-6321812-C & ..13-C. Ref Body ILL Sec 230.1 pg2, Body Sec 210 pg22; 64, 65 & 66 Osborn Assembly Manuals).
2. 65-66 full length console glove box light socket, 14A324 (ref Body ILL Sec 045 pg 3). This is a hard copper part that acts as both light socket and as the switch when the glove box door opens. Held in place with a staple. 
3. Pin and roller for 64-66 door lower hinge check arms (hinge p/ns C4ZB-6522806 & 7, C5ZB-6522810-B & 11-B. Ref Body Sec 220 pg32). The pin and roller are available in a complete kit but almost all the hinges I’ve worked on only need the roller.
4. Correct diameter staples on 64-66 front fender splash shields replacement rubber. The original staples are 0.047in dia by measurment, the replacements supplied in “Concours kits” are 0.060in dia. (rubber p/ns C4ZB-16A572, C4ZB-16C566, staple 370168-S10, ref Sec 161 pg 13). The instructions say to “drill out holes”. I'm making staples from steel wire I got from Granger.
Jim

[MattDoscher]

Some items I thought of:

10848 inst. cluster base for 5 gauge inst. cluster on '65/'66.
045A36-1A '65/'66 console base for cars w/ AC.  Doesn't make any sense to buy a $200+ part just to saw off the storage compt.
Intake manifold mounted bellcrank assembly for transmission kickdown on early '65's.
Metal support bracket for '65 AM radio.

[jwc66k]

Exactly what I intended. List what isn't available or reproduced and if there is enough call for the item maybe the Mustang parts sellers will get thing made. It's called - "supply and demand", there is no supply and there is a demand.
Jim

[Oz390]

The demand is likely too small to justify tooling and a reasonable production run.  Per part costs go up the smaller the run.  No one wants to make 10,000 items and sell 1,000... supply and demand is trumped by cost/benefit!

Example, I know a guy here in Australia who has remanufactured really nice bushings for 65-68 convertible tops.  Cost for a set?  $275.  People choke and want it for $20, can't be done... unless you go to a huge run and invest a lot to sell how many $20 sets...

And look at all the posts about poor repros.  Reason?  Cutting corners in design/tooling/QA/QC to hit a "target price"... and you see where that ends up when you try to install most repro parts.

[CharlesTurner]

The value of the cars has a lot to do with the cost and availability of parts, so it is totally acceptable that owners balk at some items that cost a lot.  I am dumbfounded at the listing prices of some of the 79-93 fox chassis parts.  How can owners justify nearly $1k for a set of rear windows when the car is only worth $7500?  $500 for a pair of door panels?  Makes no sense at all to spend that kind of $$ on such a low value car.

[craig429]

How can owners justify nearly $1k for a set of rear windows when the car is only worth $7500?  $500 for a pair of door panels?  Makes no sense at all to spend that kind of $$ on such a low value car.

I know what you mean, and I am trying to stay in reason with my 70 SCJ because it is much easier to get under water than to have a car that is worth more than you have into it.

But then here is how I would justify it, since over the past 9 years I have been building up a 94 turbo charged 600HP GT Mustang with a full road race suspension and have way more in it that I can get out.  I can see after someone spends 15K on a engine and turbo system, 5K on suspension, 5K on paint, 2k on wheels/tires, roll bar, seats, etc and the only thing left to make the car complete is a set of rear quarter windows because the rubber is so deteriorated and detracts from the look of the car, and there is only one source whats another grand. I tell my wife, I only need this last part to be done  .

[jwc66k]

The demand is likely too small to justify tooling and a reasonable production run.  Per part costs go up the smaller the run.  No one wants to make 10,000 items and sell 1,000... supply and demand is trumped by cost/benefit!

Example, I know a guy here in Australia who has remanufactured really nice bushings for 65-68 convertible tops.  Cost for a set?  $275.  People choke and want it for $20, can't be done... unless you go to a huge run and invest a lot to sell how many $20 sets...

And look at all the posts about poor repros.  Reason?  Cutting corners in design/tooling/QA/QC to hit a "target price"... and you see where that ends up when you try to install most repro parts.

This post was started to show a demand for current non-reproduced Mustang related parts to businesses that sell Mustang parts. If you are doing a resoration, costs are secondary, if not, collect rocks. Ask Charles, he bought an unused dual red line tire for - ask him if you want to know. Nobody raised an eyebrow on the $1000 starting bid for a battery on e-bay (it was reduced to $800) and most posts related to the price seemed to think the price was OK.
I have an intimate knowledge of limited production and prototype development in the Hi-Tech industry. We used CAD/CAM to design computers from a board to the chassis. Quantities were less than 50 and most are still being used today. That's the computer world. A run of 1,000 car related parts is not limited production but it may be cost effective. Let's use the copper socket/switch used on 65-66 console glove boxes as an example. If you need one to repair a console, is a $25.00 price too much? A run of 1,000 would yield $25,000, and that quantity might be low. With that amount of money as a potential return, I can see a $10,000 to $15,000 investment as something to draw interest. Now that's a backwards way to make a costing, but it's one method to justify the decision to make a product. (It's called a sanity check.)
A one time only cost of $275 for a set of bushings may be high, but it shows a demand. Remember, Ford made about 173,000 64-66 convertibles. Let's assume that half are still on the road. That's about 86,000. Assume that a quarter might need bushings. That's 20,000 sets. That quantity might not be used immediately but that might be the potential lifetime replacement amount. It's not unreasonable.
Jim
   

[J_Speegle]

I know what you mean, and I am trying to stay in reason with my 70 SCJ because it is much easier to get under water than to have a car that is worth more than you have into it.

Agreed this is one of the few hobbies where the participants worry about what their toy is worth (well you have people like stamp collectors but they don't have to fix up their interest with additional parts . Plenty of others that are just money pits - ask any racer, golfer, modified car owner........... Not everyone builds cars because what they are worth in the end. As always its all about choices - IMHO

[Oz390]

Comparing NOS prices for a concours restoration to repro is a bit of a stretch.  Apples and oranges.

1 person on a forum doesn't show much demand, or 10... or even 100.  And of the 20,000 convertible owners how many would really pay up the $275 for the set... very, very few.  And then to make them "concours correct" would require even more care to satisfy the demand of the high end resorer as the example set does show some machining marks not on the originals.  People would care.... more cost.  And the fact one owner made 10 sets as one-offs out of love for the hobby and has the CNC files to make more does not show "demand" from a business case view.

And on the cost issue, it is a factor but the examples of high dollar parts for a handful of cars does not show commercial quantity demand.  Or someone like Drake would have stepped in and expanded their business. 

Ya can't even get a decent carpet or bumper, so whats the hope for some odd lower demand part at a "reasonable" price the market will bear... Look at CoralSnake's site, fantastic repro parts, with prices to match.  Same for the shop the makes the exact repro exhaust systems (forget the name right now).  Incredible workmanship, but IIRC over $2k for a setup, not many are going to go there.  Ii won't.  Some will.

Prototyping from 3D printers is dropping that cost, but tooling and the actual run are the big cost.  $25k can go real fast.  A few years ago I was quoted $10k (in Australia, expensive place) for tooling and a test run for two very simple bushings I did in 3D CAD I was looking to make a while ago.  Production runs required 5000 minimum and at 20k started dropping per unit costs.. but there was no way I was going to drop 30-40k in 10,000 $5 parts (10k "profit") and hope for a return dribbling in over 10 years... that's charity, not business. 

Do the math, make the run if you're so into the production process, sure it's such a money spinner, and that cost is not an issue to every Mustang owner who wants a widget!   

[CharlesTurner]

Ya can't even get a decent carpet or bumper, so whats the hope for some odd lower demand part at a "reasonable" price the market will bear... Look at CoralSnake's site, fantastic repro parts, with prices to match.  Same for the shop the makes the exact repro exhaust systems (forget the name right now).  Incredible workmanship, but IIRC over $2k for a setup, not many are going to go there.  Ii won't.  Some will.

That pretty much sums it up right there.

Scott Fuller is the one making exhaust systems.  As mentioned, incredible workmanship.  We are lucky to have folks like him in the hobby that do things the right way.  I can't speak to whether his efforts are worth the return, but he posts here from time to time, so maybe he will weigh in from that aspect.

[jwc66k]

Apparently the intent of this thread is to show a desire to have certain items that are not currently reproduced considered to be reproduced, has not been received by some. Virginia Classic Mustang, Scott Fuller, Scott Drake and others see different. They find sources to fill a demand for parts or make them theirselves. They don't seem to have a defeatist attitude.
Jim

[CharlesTurner]

They don't seem to have a defeatist attitude.

By complaining that the parts aren't available and not taking action, you've taken the defeatist attitude yourself.  If you want to see a solution, put some work into it and make it happen.

[jwc66k]

Complaining is not what I was doing, I was making an attempt to show a demand. Let me add the Arvinode exaust system to the list of things that were done. And to your - "If you want to see a solution, put some work into it and make it happen" - who says I haven't.
Jim

[CharlesTurner]

Complaining is not what I was doing, I was making an attempt to show a demand. Let me add the Arvinode exaust system to the list of things that were done. And to your - "If you want to see a solution, put some work into it and make it happen" - who says I haven't.
Jim

Some were offering intelligible reasons for shortcomings, which is a potential barrier to overcome in a solution to the problem.  By complaining that those posts were not relevant to the discussion sure sounded like an armchair critic.  I think it is safe to say that all replies to the original post were helpful in some way.

I doubt you had anything to do with the Arvinode system development.  Dave Wallace was the one who saw a shortcoming there and found a way to have the system recreated.  Even though he didn't do the actual work, it was his persistence that lead to development of the system.  This is a great example of working towards a solution instead of simply bringing forth an awareness that nobody makes a part.

[Asm109]

Charles,

I did not read anything in Jim's post that I interpret as a claim to have anything to do with the Arvin node exhaust.  He just cited it as an example.