Topic: 67 Tilt Steering Wheel/Column Discussion

[krelboyne]

Well, that one under the battery looks like "the right stuff" as used on a 67 Mustang Tilt-away but I'm not sure bringing any Cougar examples into the mix is a great idea. I am not a Cougar specialist, (maybe Scott can chime in here) but I recall that the Cougar headlamp system required a separate canister and if memory serves, it was located in the LH wheel well area. Also, if memory serves, 68 Cougars were somewhat different than 67 Cougars and changeover dates occurred in the Cougar family very similar to the Mustang.

I say what I just wrote to try and stay focused only on 67 MUSTANG Tilt-Away systems. (O.P's title of the thread) Certainly the Cougars vacuum routing, check valve(s) would differ slightly from Mustang because of the headlamp system alone. Add all the running changes going into the 68 model year and the waters would get muddied here easily. The  67 Mustang Assembly manual pictures the Cougar underhood routing of hoses on the engine(s) so that helps filter the waters some.

I believe we have determined much about these systems so far in this thread, yet more needs to be learned, primary in hose routing for the various "correct" installations based on the complete build data of each example. (e.g., with A/C or w/o, SJ, Dearborn, NJ built and assembly date)

The assembly manuals so far seem to be the best guide as a general overview of the hose routing but having the anomalies that have been discussed so far still leaves an unanswered question. edited What is pictured, that looks to be under the dash as a  vacuum "T" in the assembly manual for the 67 Mustang? The manual states it goes to the Tilt-Away column, yet nobody seems to have an example or information on this anomaly.

Now we just need the folks like those at NPD or Virginia Classic to help oil the wheels and get some of these long-gone from available parts back into production, parts like the hoses, check valves, canisters. ....please....stop me, I'm dreaming! I forgot how rare this option is! lol!

Richard

Yes, the Cougars used the same configuration as Mustang year for year, with the same changeover dates. (Cougars and Mustangs followed each other down the assembly line). A 1967 Cougar with A/C and tilt would technically have 3 vacuum canisters. Each dedicated to tilt, A/C, and headlights. (headlight vacuum tank is mounter in the forward section of the drivers side fender.)
We have a vendor willing to reproduce all of the tilt/tilt away hoses for each of the years 1967-69, we need samples though. I believe that there would be 4-5 versions? Are there 2 or is it 3 hose kits for the various vacuum canisters, and locations of canisters, on a 1967.
We have been trying to get accurate examples of vacuum hoses for all of the years of tilt swing steering columns.

[67gtasanjose]

...We have a vendor willing to reproduce all of the tilt/tilt away hoses for each of the years 1967-69, we need samples though. I believe that there would be 4-5 versions? Are there 2 or is it 3 hose kits for the various vacuum canisters, and locations of canisters, on a 1967.
We have been trying to get accurate examples of vacuum hoses for all of the years of tilt swing steering columns.

Scott, first of all, good to hear you chime in on this topic again, new hoses would be a fabulous start to restoring these systems correctly.

I have a few feet of the hose out from under the dash area, has the green stripe & white stripe (I posted a fuzzy picture last week in this thread, I could take another shot) If I see the possibility of getting the correct hoses, I have no problems with sacrificing a section. The colors are faded a bit from age.

If you are looking for lengths to pre-cut, Ill be no help but the assembly manual looks like it gives you most of the lengths to the under battery location.

* Manifold to Reservoir, V-8 engines, 54.0 inches
* Manifold to Reservoir, 6 cyl. engines, 27.0 inches
* Reservoir to Dash Mounted Solenoid, 66.0 inches
* Dash Mounted Solenoid to Steel Tube Elbow MEASUREMENT NEEDED

As for the other years and designs other than the under battery variety, lengths would need to be supplied.

Anybody who can help out here with details of other years and models, now's a good time to jump in!

Another situation touched on in other threads, I HAVE SEEN the solenoid for the vacuum motor mounted low on the steering columns before (I think it was a December '66 built 67 S code Cougar GT, not sure of the plant but I saw the car in So. Calif. back in '79) so that is yet another situation to resolve as far as "correctness" goes.

Maybe we should just buy the hose by the length (foot) with a spare 12 inches?


Richard

[7R02A]

See attached picture of a Mid December of '66 built mustang at SJ vacuum canister.  The car was non AC and had tilt wheel option.  Canister was mounted under the right side hood hinge.
John

[67gtasanjose]

See attached picture of a Mid December of '66 built mustang at SJ vacuum canister.  The car was non AC and had tilt wheel option.  Canister was mounted under the right side hood hinge.
John

John, are the studs on this canister 5/16 inch or 1/4 inch? They actually look to be 5/16" in the picture.

Richard

[7R02A]

Just measured them.  The are 1/4-20.  John

[67gtasanjose]

Just measured them.  The are 1/4-20.  John

OK, that is consistant with other ones, I did find the oblong canister having the 5/16-24 studs on them.

[drummingrocks]

Another situation touched on in other threads, I HAVE SEEN the solenoid for the vacuum motor mounted low on the steering columns before (I think it was a December '66 built 67 S code Cougar GT, not sure of the plant but I saw the car in So. Calif. back in '79) so that is yet another situation to resolve as far as "correctness" goes.
Richard

Richard, is it unusual to have the solenoid mounted there?  I'm going off of memory here, but I'm 99% certain that's where it is on my '67.

[67gtasanjose]

I believe we should all consider looking at the recent post into this site's Library Section on Cruise Control installations.

Some references to the vacuum systems that relate to this discussion are contained there. (see specifically the canister images, related notes and addendum)

Carefully, I have read through this information and I am now more UNCLEAR as I am clear.

Doesn't the addendum suggest that EARLY style would (or could) have just ONE canister with the tilt AND air conditioning, and that the EARLY canister would need removed and two other canisters installed (one below apron and another below battery).

This might be an explanation why my example DID NOT seem to ever have the battery tray location canister.

I DID "procure the canister & bracket" for the battery tray location already, not the new hoses yet (still hunting the green/white stripe hoses in reproduction)...but clarity would be nice before I actually install them. (I am not at the point of reassembly yet on my example)

More input from others here would be appreciated.

Richard

[drummingrocks]

I believe we should all consider looking at the recent post into this site's Library Section on Cruise Control installations.

Some references to the vacuum systems that relate to this discussion are contained there. (see specifically the canister images, related notes and addendum)

I noticed that too after reading through the Cruise Control installations.  From what I can tell after reading, those instructions do confirm that the canister location was an early/late variation.  It still doesn't answer your question about what the procedure was when a car had both Tilt and A/C.

[67gtasanjose]

I noticed that too after reading through the Cruise Control installations.  From what I can tell after reading, those instructions do confirm that the canister location was an early/late variation.  It still doesn't answer your question about what the procedure was when a car had both Tilt and A/C.

Text of the addendum dated March 7, 1967 (partial, as applicable), copied here as a supplement contained with the Cruise Control installation proceedures:

*I.S. (instruction sheet) No. 2627

Note on sheet 7 of 7 should be clarified as follows:

"On early production vehicles with tilt column, procure bracket C7ZZ-3F547-A and relocate tank as shown. On factory air conditioning equipped vehicles, procure tank assembly C7ZZ-19A566-A and install as shown.

On vehicles with both air conditioning and tilt column, procure both tank assemblies C7ZZ-19566-A and C7ZZ-3E547-A and bracket C7ZZ-3F547-A and install as shown. Aso on 390 engine installations, check tank installation under battery tray to ensure clearance to engine."

(*reference page #13 of Library PDF)

I believe it DOES answer the question, but am I reading this incorrectly? PROCURE to me says that it (battery tray mounted canister) is NOT already present on the vehicle UNLESS it came with the cruise option from the factory. This seems to be directed SOLEY at the EARLY STYLE OBLONG CANISTER VEHICLES!!! I realize this may be an "implied fact" but maybe others that are versed well in interpretation of the written form of the English language can redirect my thinking, otherwise, to me, that is how I interpret it as stating. PLEASE! Correct me if I am wrong! I am not trying to be the "expert" on this subject, I simply wish to get it correct!

A few examples of my interpretation of this information (for clarity):
Example #1: John, username "7RO2A" previously on reply # 60 said his NON-A/C with tilt had the smaller canister, exactly like the one that mounts under the battery (without the bracket), so... (for the sake of using John's car as an example of demonstrating...that is, IF JOHN WAS ADDING an original "dealer installation" kit of the Cruise Control System) therefore, if adding the CRUISE system onto his example, he would simply relocate the EXISTING canister to under the battery with the bracket C7ZZ-3F547-A and use the "kit-supplied" hoses. ( did I get this correct?)

Example#2: My 11/2/1966 S.J. w/289 car with factory A/C and Tilt (early design, with the oblong A/C canister) , if the selling dealership were to have install the CRUISE CONTROL option before the initial sale, wouldn't they have "removed the oblong canister and dispose of it", they also would have needed to "procure both tank assemblies C7ZZ-19566-A and C7ZZ-3F547-A and install as shown."  ("as shown" is intended to read as in "using the images" that are contained in the article for 67 Mustangs in the Library section of this site)

Example #3: An example with a 390 engine, factory A/C and Tilt-away, would use the same instructions as in example #2 (above) except using the other mounting holes in the battery tray support (as indicated on the instruction sheets, also found in article found in the Library section of this site.)

Is this making sense? It's beginning to blurr some in my head! (read as this is giving me a headache...I have made a few edits, so I hope it reads correctly by now. I will re-read again later and edit <as needed> again)

Richard 

[J_Speegle]

Glad you guys found and noticed those notes. Was going to point them out but figured that you each would find them on your own as you did 

I believe it DOES answer the question, but am I reading this incorrectly? PROCURE to me says that it (battery tray mounted canister) is NOT already present on the vehicle UNLESS it came with the cruise option from the factory. I realize this may be an "implied fact" but maybe others that are versed well in interpretation of the written form of the English language can redirect my thinking, that is how I read it as stating.

It could also mean (as we have found out in the assembly manuals) that Ford believed or planned to maybe to not use the prepared battery trays with the holes on cars not needing the holes at the time of printing the pages only to, in practice, to have some end up that way.  Also why include the pattern and measurements for converting/adding the holes if they didn't expect that in some cases dealers would need to modify the regular trays out of need or unavailability?  Since they were not included in the kit nor to my knowledge carried in the parts department as an individual specific item.


Just a thought

[67gtasanjose]

Jeff, I have been making a few edits since or while you made your comment, but before I read your comment. I hope I am not "muddying the waters" any with my line(s) of examples mentioned. Hopefully, this discussion might bring about more clarity of "correctness".

As I mentioned earlier (possibly in this thread?), I have always been willing to "restore" any missing or incorrect parts on my example for the Tilt option...but it looks like I may have been on a "witch hunt" without any need, I say this because I do not have & I do not wish to add the "Cruise Control" option to my car.

The more I sort through information about some of these options (using my vehicle's option as the example) the more it seems I never needed to actually "procure" the so-called previously, "Tilt Canister", on the battery tray. It seems more like this was a "Cruise Control" canister also used on the tilt-away column. For some reference, look closely at the hoses in the photographs contained in the PDF file (in the Library). Am I reading them incorrectly or doesn't the hose going to the tilt-away also "T" into the cruise control transducer vacuum feed line?

Richard

[J_Speegle]

Jeff, I have been making a few edits since or while you made your comment, but before I read your comment. I hope I am not "muddying the waters" any with my line(s) of examples mentioned. Hopefully, this discussion might bring about more clarity of "correctness".

Don't think so and believe that talking things out can help flush out details and stuff that, with out the exchange, might not get looked from all angles. We, as individuals can only compare what we see and read to our own experiences and have often discovered the value of having an option discussion with other like minded people. Somethings it' s been remarkable how quickly what we think is a "discovery" to turn into nothing or flower and add a missing piece to another persons puzzle. Of course the whole discussion process is made more difficult since we have to use the written word to describe and explain

This only works as long as there are no agendas and all involved are OK with not finding out an answer "right this minute" as well as being OK to continue to explore.   Think that's enough of that... on to the meat of the discussion

The more I sort through information about some of these options (using my vehicle's option as the example) the more it seems I never needed to actually "procure" the so-called previously, "Tilt Canister", on the battery tray.

Not sure that is the way I'm reading it - to me it seems that the two tanks need to be added to the car if your addition the cruise option to a car without AC or tilt or a combination of both. That is where the idea of splicing into hoses and T's come into play - when those other options are present

It seems more like this was a "Cruise Control" canister also used on the tilt-away column. For some reference, look closely at the hoses in the photographs contained in the PDF file (in the Library).

Are you looking at page 4 or 12?

 

Am I reading them incorrectly or doesn't the hose going to the tilt-away also "T" into the cruise control transducer vacuum feed line?

On page 4,  I see the control box vacuum lines connecting to the vacuum source at the back of the engine. Possible identified as the vacuum solenoid valve opening identified by a red paint daub.

The second yellow stripped hose connecting to the "bellows" /throttle control.

Will stop there so we can work step by step through this - gaining agreement and a foundation to move to the next point.

[67gtasanjose]

Jeff, my area of focus is on pages 12-14 of the Library article as it appears in the Library.

Keep in mind, these are INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS FOR SPEED CONTROL that a dealership might have used had a request to add this option onto a car they sold or onto a car that came into the shop for service.

ALSO: I see I have an omission in some of my previous text (and it is relevant) about the items needing "procured" to install the Speed Control onto an EARLY PRODUCTION vehicle with A/C and/or Tilt option. I will edit that previous post with the updates highlighted in BLUE.

Page 12, shows the vacuum hoses, page 4 is mostly electrical and speedo cables (therefore unrelated to the vacuum systems). Page 5 shows a direct connection to the intake manifold for SPEED CONTROL installation onto a car without A/C or Tilt, and a 2ND diagram depicting a "T"'d in source to manifold vacuum for adding the 2ND canister onto a car WITH A/C and/or Tilt. Page 5 basically is the PRIMARY source to manifold vacuum (for all 3 optional equipment options) and page 12 shows more the secondary, or  possibly better wording, the "reservoir vacuum" routing

Page 13, shows templates for drilling and mounting of the two canisters and or relocating diagrams/instructions (including NOTES)

Page 14, is the addendum letter to clarify the "NOTE" located bottom center of page 13


After studying this all again, I feel that YES, the battery tray mounted canister is designed to be there for the purpose of supplementing vacuum supply for the Tilt-awy option, but I also feel it was NOT there on all early 67's with the Tilt option...let me explain why.

I cannot yet agree that ON EARLY DESIGN Mustangs with A/C and tilt options, that two (2) tanks were originally installed. Maybe what sits in my craw is the NOTE on page 13, bottom center and how it reads.

"NOTE: ON EARLY PRODUCTION VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH EITHER TILT COLUMN AND/OR FACTORY AIR CONDITIONING A VACUUM TANK WILL BE LOCATED ON THE RIGHT HAND APRON WHERE THE SPEED CONTROL ASSEMBLY IS TO BE INSTALLED. THIS TANK WILL HAVE TO BE REMOVED AND ONE OR TWO NEW TANKS INSTALLED AS SHOWN. ON A/C VEHICLES THE LIQUID LINE WILL ALSO HAVE TO BE ROTATED AS SHOWN."

When I combine the above text with the clarity of the ADDENDUM (page 14), I keep reading these installation instructions the same way I initially did, that is that the ONE oblong tank (early production design) is "REMOVED" and "ONE OR TWO NEW TANKS" installed as shown. My interpretation, supported using John's (username: 7R01A) December SJ example WITHOUT A/C but W/Tilt option, John originally had ONLY the one small canister on the right apron, a canister that is identical to the battery tray mounted canister but without the bracket. Therefore, for the sake of "INSTALLING SPEED CONTROL" onto John's example, the installer would need to "PROCURE BRACKET C7ZZ-3F547-A", relocate that canister to under the battery with the bracket, ALSO "PROCURE CANISTER C7ZZ-19A566-A, drill out the apron according to the instructions and mount this canister from UNDER the fender well.
All of this is to say that in JOHN's example, if the dealership were to add the SPEED CONTROL, the installer would NEED ONLY ONE CANISTER since the car ALREADY HAS THE CANISTER NEEDED FOR THE UNDERSIDE OF THE BATTERY TRAY MOUNTED UP ON THE APRON, SO ALL THAT IS NEEDED IS THE BRACKET, SCREWS AND NUTS TO MOUNT IT UNDER THE BATTERY.

Now, on MY EXAMPLE, (EARLY PRODUCTION with A/C and originally using the oblong canister) If the original purchaser would have requested the addition of SPEED CONTROL onto it, the installer would have found the big-fat oblong canister, so it cannot be left in place and it will not fit under the battery so the installer would NEED TWO (2) NEW CANISTERS AND THE BRACKET TO RELOCATE and make the room on the apron needed to install the SPEED CONTROL.

ON LATER 67 EXAMPLES and on into 1968 FACTORY Air Conditioning examples, the APRON mounted canister is ALREADY BELOW THE APRON, in the fender well area and is already out of the way. If the car ALSO had Tilt-Away, it would already have the battery tray mounted canister as well.

The ONLY reason I can arrive at is if INSTALLING SPEED CONTROL onto an EARLY PRODUCTION 1967 Mustangs and Cougars, the vehicles WOULD NEED BOTH canisters C7ZZ-19566-A AND C7ZZ-3E547-A AND the bracket C7ZZ-3F547-A to achieve enough vacuum storage as the OBLONG canister previously had. I say this because basically the Oblong Canister was double-sized of the other two to begin with! Why else would they be "T'd" together basically downstream, before going into the dash?

This also make sense of the image in the Chassis assembly manual, top and center of page 7, that shows a "T" inside of the dash between the A/C vacuum source and the Tilt-Away column.

~anybody at all following me yet?

It seems VERY REASONABLE TO ASSUME that on the LATER model 67 Mustangs, the oblong canister was abolished completely, if you had only A/C, you got the canister under the fender well. If you had ONLY tilt-away (jury still out on this) you got just one canister (location seems to vary)
If your later 67 or 68 had A/C and Tilt-away, you have a fender well mounted canister AND a battery tray mounted canister as original equipment, therefore... you would NOT NEED TO RELOCATE ANYTHING TO INSTALL SPEED CONTROL.

Summary: The reason for the update in design was for the sole purpose of making space available in this area in the event of installation of the SPEED CONTROL OPTION. Basically, if you had a later 67 version OR a 68, you would NOT NEED TO PROCURE THE ADDITIONAL CANISTER(s) or bracket MENTIONED IN THE ARTICLE because they would already BE THERE!

Looking at the vacuum lines, (page 12) THE LINES ARE CLEARLY TIED TOGETHER WITH THE "T" before going on in under the dash. NOTICE HOW NONE OF THESE LINES ATTACH TO THE SPEED CONTROL UNIT!!!!!!!!!!
THE SPEED CONTROL UNIT IS ATTACHED (very poor idea, by the way) DIRECTLY TO THE INTAKE MANIFOLD (page 5 of the instructions) AND IS NOT TIED INTO ANY OF THE RESEVOIRS (as it ought to be)

PLEASE! Look again closely! I am NOT installing a Speed Control system, but I feel this evidence speaks volumes to the original routing's of both early and later design vacuum reservoir systems for all 67-68 Mustangs that had ANY vacuum related optional equipment...not just my example.

PLEASE! Feedback encouraged and welcome!

Richard

PS: Now I'll go back and correct some omission of text in the previous comment (changes are made in blue )

[67gta289]

I found 7F01C1219187, Dec 3 scheduled build, which could be classified as early, with only the oblong tank.  This was a 289-2V, AC, tilt car that was owned by a Ford engineer and parked in 1987.  I've included pictures before - but had a FoMoCo belt for the AC and was largely untouched.  There was no tank on the battery tray, and there were no holes where a tank would have been.  There was a single vacuum line feed into the dash area, with a tee that split to the AC and tilt loads.  To me that is enough evidence that not all cars equipped with tilt had the dedicated canister mounted on the battery tray.  As to exact change over dates, variations between plants, etc. that is the hard part to nail down.