Topic: 1968 302 4 speed bellhousing 157 or 164 tooth?

[spidernad]

Can anyone with an original unmolested 68 302 J or F code 4 speed car confirm if the car came with the 164 tooth (C5AA-6394-B) bellhousing?
The Ford Master Parts Catalog lists the 289 as having the 157 tooth (C5DA-6394-A) bellhousing in 68 and the 302 as having the 164 tooth bellhousing as mentioned above.
I will post pictures below of the two for ID purposes. The quickest way to tell the 157 tooth bell from the 164 tooth is the round unused boss at the bottom of the 157 tooth that is not on the 164 tooth.

[Bob Gaines]

Can anyone with an original unmolested 68 302 J or F code 4 speed car confirm if the car came with the 164 tooth (C5AA-6394-B) bellhousing?
The Ford Master Parts Catalog lists the 289 as having the 157 tooth (C5DA-6394-A) bellhousing in 68 and the 302 as having the 164 tooth bellhousing as mentioned above.
I will post pictures below of the two for ID purposes. The quickest way to tell the 157 tooth bell from the 164 tooth is the round unused boss at the bottom of the 157 tooth that is not on the 164 tooth.

Also a different starter is required on the 302 164 manual transmission compared to the 289 157 tooth manual transmission.

[jwc66k]

Also a different starter is required on the 302 164 manual transmission compared to the 289 157 tooth manual transmission.

For the record, where is this documented? I found C7AF-11001-B listed in the 68 edition of Ford Car Parts (aka MPC) Section 110.
Jim

[Bob Gaines]

For the record, where is this documented? I found C7AF-11001-B listed in the 68 edition of Ford Car Parts (aka MPC) Section 110.
Jim

Pretty common knowledge among rebuilders of two different starters. C7AF-11001-B  is listed for 289/302 automatic. C7AF-11001-F is listed for 302 M/T . Apparently those numbers are wrong . That is why I rely on the longer nose cone on 68 up  302 M/T starters is a identifying factor since no concern for a stamped number on a center case is given by rebuilders.

[spidernad]

Also a different starter is required on the 302 164 manual transmission compared to the 289 157 tooth manual transmission.

Yes that's correct. The 164 tooth bell requires the shorter nose starter with the gear sitting deeper in the starter housing. The 157 tooth starter has the longer nose cone tip with the gear protruding out further.
The engine spacer plate also has a bigger hole for the starter in the 164 plate. The 157 plate has a smaller hole so the 164 tooth bell starter won't accidentally be used. (although many have tried)

[Bob Gaines]

Yes that's correct. The 164 tooth bell requires the shorter nose starter with the gear sitting deeper in the starter housing. The 157 tooth starter has the longer nose cone tip with the gear protruding out further.
The engine spacer plate also has a bigger hole for the starter in the 164 plate. The 157 plate has a smaller hole so the 164 tooth bell starter won't accidentally be used. (although many have tried)

Your pictures are not of typical factory starters .Maybe auto parts stores alternatives?  I posted a picture of the longer nose 302 68 up M/T starter (right or bottom)and the shorter nose 289 or 302 automatic starter (left or top). Depending on how the picture displays.

[KDunne]

I have a 68 302 4speed which i believe to be correct.  C5AA

[spidernad]

Yes that's correct. The 164 tooth bell requires the shorter nose starter with the gear sitting deeper in the starter housing. The 157 tooth starter has the longer nose cone tip with the gear protruding out further.
The engine spacer plate also has a bigger hole for the starter in the 164 plate. The 157 plate has a smaller hole so the 164 tooth bell starter won't accidentally be used. (although many have tried)

Yes, the starters I posted pictures of are not Factory Ford. Just posted to show the difference in the noses which are the same as factory dimensions.
I appreciate your input but I started this thread about the 164 tooth bellhousing in a 68 and it's gone into starter land.
I'm just looking for conformation that the 164 bell was actually installed in the 68 302's from the factory and not just a MPC mistake, which there are plenty.
Thanks.

[spidernad]

I have a 68 302 4speed which i believe to be correct.  C5AA

Hi and thanks for chiming in. So do you believe that that is the original bellhousing and can you confirm its the 164 by the pictures i posted?
Again, the 157 tooth bell has a big unused boss at the bottom as shown in my pictures so if you glance under your car or refer to pictures you might have you can see if that boss is not there and will easily tell it's not a 157 and actually a 164 bell.
I appreciate your input.
Anyone else able to confirm this bell in the 302 68 from the factory?
Thanks all.

[spidernad]

Okay. I think I've found the conformation I was looking for, although if anyone has more proof please feel free to post.

I found pictures of a very original and untouched 68 J code 4 speed for sale that was in the family since the beginning and had good pictures of the underside.
Amazingly rust free also so must have come from a dry climate and been garaged and well cared for.

I can see the flat bottom of the bellhousing which is only on the C5AA 164 bell, and without the unused boss that the 157 tooth bellhousing has.
The 157 tooth bell is not flat on the bottom and has the unused boss so it's clearly the 164 tooth bell in the pictures. (see pics below)

As a side note, I saw many pictures of 68 GT350 4 speed cars and they all had the 157 tooth bell. None of those were super original so I don't trust that yet
but if they did come that way then it's a little weird that the Shelby would have the 157 tooth C5DA-A bell and the Mustang J code 4 speed would use the 164 C5AA-B bell.

One more side note. The Kevin Marti book "Mustang...by the Numbers" only shows three 1968 Mustangs produced with the 302-2V F code engine.
Two with 3 speed manual trans and one with 4 speed manual trans. I would never have guessed that. Pretty rare if you think about it, Three cars!
I know many 68 289's actually had 302 blocks so I guess they had to use up the 289 cranks and rods before going to 302 stuff
and also saving the 302 cranks and rods for the J codes so it makes sense but still interesting.

[krelboyne]

One more side note. The Kevin Marti book "Mustang...by the Numbers" only shows three 1968 Mustangs produced with the 302-2V F code engine.
Two with 3 speed manual trans and one with 4 speed manual trans. I would never have guessed that. Pretty rare if you think about it, Three cars!
I know many 68 289's actually had 302 blocks so I guess they had to use up the 289 cranks and rods before going to 302 stuff
and also saving the 302 cranks and rods for the J codes so it makes sense but still interesting.

Those were error cars. The F code 302-2V was not technically available in a Mustang in 1968. Probably a mix up with the Cougars on the Dearborn or San Jose assembly line. Over 50% of 1968 Cougars came with F code 302-2V's (over 60,000 units).

[Bob Gaines]

At least for the 68 GT350 which were all specified to come with J code 302's the 164 tooth was the typical flywheel. In this case if what ever document that says the 164 tooth flywheel and bellhousing correlates to 68 302 then it is correct. My "also" comment with it's context usage was meant for confirmation  of your suspected bellhousing usage . I am sorry now that it was not more clear. For others reading the starter comments are important because if you do not use the correct starter for the 68 M/T 164 tooth flywheel you will grind away fly wheel teeth from improper engagement of starter to flywheel teeth.
FYI your pictured aftermarket starters are not the same outside dimensions as the factory Ford starters which is the part you use for visual identification and I only point this out because if others use your pictures as a yardstick for reference they will be disappointed with results. The easiest way for most people to distinguish the different aluminum bellhousings is by the C5AA-6394-B casting ID for the 164 tooth . If casting is too small to read or partly obscured by grease or dirt the fact that it is on the driver side (lip under clutch fork opening) which can easily be perceived at a much longer distance identifies it as such. The 157 tooth C5DA-6394-A marked bellhousing  has the casting number on the passenger side (starter area). Knowing where the casting numbers are positioned makes for quick identification even if you can't read all of the characters for whatever reason. Of course there are other ways to identify but most find the ones I mentioned the easiest. 

[KDunne]

At least for the 68 GT350 which were all specified to come with J code 302's the 164 tooth was the typical flywheel. In this case if what ever document that says the 164 tooth flywheel and bellhousing correlates to 68 302 then it is correct. My "also" comment with it's context usage was meant for confirmation  of your suspected bellhousing usage . I am sorry now that it was not more clear. For others reading the starter comments are important because if you do not use the correct starter for the 68 M/T 164 tooth flywheel you will grind away fly wheel teeth from improper engagement of starter to flywheel teeth.
FYI your pictured aftermarket starters are not the same outside dimensions as the factory Ford starters which is the part you use for visual identification and I only point this out because if others use your pictures as a yardstick for reference they will be disappointed with results. The easiest way for most people to distinguish the different aluminum bellhousings is by the C5AA-6394-B casting ID for the 164 tooth . If casting is too small to read or partly obscured by grease or dirt the fact that it is on the driver side (lip under clutch fork opening) which can easily be perceived at a much longer distance identifies it as such. The 157 tooth C5DA-6394-A marked bellhousing  has the casting number on the passenger side (starter area). Knowing where the casting numbers are positioned makes for quick identification even if you can't read all of the characters for whatever reason. Of course there are other ways to identify but most find the ones I mentioned the easiest.

Hi here is a picture of the underside of my car

[Coralsnake]

I think this is also addressed in a Shelby service bulletin

[KDunne]

I think this is also addressed in a Shelby service bulletin

Here you go