Topic: Re: 1969 SJ Mustang Engine Bay and Undercarriage Color

[lmennis]

I have removed the engine from my '69 and want to clean up and paint the engine bay and probably the undercarriage before putting the drivetrain back in. I see in past forums that the color was referred to as "low gloss black" and that the Ditzler number was DDL 9423 but that it is no longer available. I assume the engine bay and undercarriage are the same color but what are the alternatives to get the correct color and type of paint?

[Coralsnake]

In most cases, under carriages are not black. I certainly would not describe the engine bay as "low gloss"

Depending on when and where the car was built the under carriage is typically a mixture of primer and body color over spray.

Engine compartments are typically semi-gloss to gloss black.

And welcome to the discussions

[tobkob]

Here is just one of many discussions on this subject...You would find it beneficial to spend your evenings reading past threads on this and other areas of these cars...I'm not being critical but there is soooo much to learn,,,

https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=25128.0

TOB

[J_Speegle]

I have removed the engine from my '69 and want to clean up and paint the engine bay and probably the undercarriage before putting the drivetrain back in. I see in past forums that the color was referred to as "low gloss black" and that the Ditzler number was DDL 9423 but that it is no longer available. I assume the engine bay and undercarriage are the same color but what are the alternatives to get the correct color and type of paint?

First welcome to the site.

You will find out quickly that we need the information from you car (year, assembly plant and when it was really completed at the plant) before we can correctly and accurately answer your question fully.

As Coralsnake the floor will not be the same paint or finish as the firewall.

If the car is a Dearborn car then the link tobkob posted will help. If it is a Dearborn car then I would suggest that you read over the 69 Dearborn undercarriage article in the Library section.

As far as the engine compartment paint there are a number of threads in this section on the subject. I would suggest you search and read those threads for some alternatives that have be found and used by different members

Will now move the thread to the 69 Section of the site since your focusing in on a particular, and hopefully plant and time period, as we discuss more if need be

[lmennis]

The car was made in California.

[J_Speegle]

The car was made in California.

Then we have found and would expect that the typically 69 San Jose would have a batch color (often a dark gray tinted bluish or greenish very slightly up close) from about the firewall rearward. Then a red oxide epoxy (not red oxide like rattle cans - smooth closed top surface) from just behind the firewall forward. Some of the surfaces will receive black paint (direct or indirect) when the engine compartment as well as front wheel wells were painted completely black. Believe there are a few threads on 69 San Jose undercarriage if you want to search and read them

[lmennis]

Jeff, I can't thank you enough for your help! So, looking at the VIN my car was definitely made in San Jose. This car has been in California since it was new. I recently bought it from the original owner. I was born in '69 and I like that particular style for the car that year too. It is a convertible and came with the 302 2V engine. My mechanic is rebuilding the engine and we are thinking about putting short headers on it and a four barrel. Nothing too crazy but perhaps a nice improvement. Your opinion on this is certainly welcome. I know it won't be totally original but it will still be "mostly" original. We will add an improved dual exhaust too.

I'm a little unsure about something in your reply. My understanding is that the engine compartment itself is basically a semi-gloss black. You mention a red oxide, which I assume is a primer, from just behind the firewall forward. I'm trying to visualize the area you mean because I'm thinking of the firewall forward as the engine area. Forgive me for being slow to comprehend this. I'm trying to figure out the dividing line between the firewall forward and the firewall rearward. I want to pressure wash the undercarriage and make it look nice. Were these colors considered primer or just left over paint?

[midlife]

The red oxide was sprayed from below, so it will be seen on downwards-facing components.  The engine bay was then painted, covering much of the red oxide that would appear on vertical surfaces.

[J_Speegle]

I'm a little unsure about something in your reply. My understanding is that the engine compartment itself is basically a semi-gloss black.

Yes it would have been been applied after the under side was painted and the body color applied so over any of the paints on touching or near by panels

You mention a red oxide, which I assume is a primer, from just behind the firewall forward. I'm trying to visualize the area you mean because I'm thinking of the firewall forward as the engine area. Forgive me for being slow to comprehend this. I'm trying to figure out the dividing line between the firewall forward and the firewall rearward. I want to pressure wash the undercarriage and make it look nice. Were these colors considered primer or just left over paint?

The red oxide epoxy primer sealer was applied by hand from a painter in a pit below the unibody that traveled along a "track" from station to station. It was applied after the floor color  (applied mechanically  from below with jets) and was meant to cover the bare steel panels from where the floor color did not cover at the front (firewall angled panel typically and across the near by frame rail, The application allowed the red oxide to travel upward somewhat onto the front frame outer and inner sides and on the wheel well inner fender panels slightly further upward. Both these inner and outer fender panels as well of the outer and inner frame rails would receive black paint from the black engine compartment above  which would travel down ward and over exposed lower panel areas like the lower a arm attachment panels exposed to paint in the engine compartment . Same thing happened to areas such as the strut rod mounting brackets that often got some paint on expose parts of the bracket when the painter applied black to the front cross member horizontally.  So you should see pockets with red oxide only or with some light overspray sine air and paint doesn't like to flow very well into corners and boxes

[J_Speegle]

Though you didn't provide when the car was finished (these things are important or at least should help identify more details) here are some examples of the general look 9R02R13154x. Some have been posted before


Of course much of the floor pan color and paint details are covered with the factory Mach I sound deadener. Part of the 55 (according to Ford) pounds of extra weight that was added to the car to try and make it quite for the passengers


Color of the batch primer/sealer/paint coat on this example can bee seen in the thread below. Found it using the words "69 sj San Jose undercarriage"

Guess I could put together more pictures and post in the unrestored section. Not a nice car in the typical way we think about and describe unrestored car but like many there are sections of the car that are and may be helpful to others. Because I got to spend a fair amount of time with these cars I've got a fair number of pictures

[J_Speegle]

For the front frame forward of the firewall I offer the following pictures. Please understand that once some one cleans the area it is not unusual to loos 50% to 100% of all overspray due to harsh chemicals or the rags/towels used to wipe the surface or even brushes So keep that in mind as you look through undercarriage pictures especially

Pic-1 In this picture, below you will notice that the front cross member has been stripped of the red oxide colored primer sealer. Notice that in the somewhat deep frame to cross member spot welds we get an idea of how well covered and with what color the cross member originally was




Pic-2 In this example you can see where the painter dropped below the front cross member and allowed paint to spray/drift into the forward pocket of the strut rod bracket for a little distance





Pic-3 This side of the car it seems that the same did not take place, the Front cross member is really worn so in some areas there is no primer/sealer left. In some numbers you can find original cars where the red oxide painter skips or misses area. Also take not that you can barely make out the dolly mark around the large hole in the frame rail as would be anticipated




Pic-4 Paint edges are sharper than what would be expected on a new car. Cleaning has removed black overspray leaving only nice red oxide or black on near by panels. If you look around the lower a arm adjustment hardware you can make out some small area where the black paint was heavier and or not cleaned away during that process. Because of its angle to the spray gun (applied from above this area would not normally get allot of black paint with a quick pass designed to focus more on panels in direct view of the painter.




Pic-5 Overall shot of the bottom of the front of the car from below. Again this area has been cleaned and some coating/product has been removed during that process



Also provides a general area, would guess that it would be give of take approximately a 6 inch range of where the red oxide primer/sealer transitioned to the floor color

Hope these all help make things cleared

[lmennis]

Thanks again for the advice. The pictures are very helpful. It does look like the red oxide color does not continue where the seats are and back to the trunk floor? Were those areas just the same color as the exterior?

[J_Speegle]

Thanks again for the advice. The pictures are very helpful. It does look like the red oxide color does not continue where the seats are and back to the trunk floor?

Yes the firewall rearward has the batch as mentioned above

Were those areas just the same color as the exterior?

Like almost all years and plants overspray painting the exterior (examples - rocker panels and rear wheel wells)  introduced exterior color on to the floor and any bracket or body part that hung down and faced the outer area. Examples would be some of the ribs in the floor panel or the area of the rear end housing since it is much higher and the wheel well is open so expect a pretty nice paint job on part of all of the exposed (facing the painter) rear frame rails

Ex-1 From another thread
Yellow arrow - Pinch weld black out overspray
Blue arrows - Exterior color overspray
Purple arrows - Batch floor pan color





Ex-2 If you notice the exterior and floor colors on this example are somewhat close. If you compare the outer surface of the frame rail and the bottom of the frame rail you will see the exterior and color difference. Just the picture I had handy and had been posted before. A faded awy example is also on the gas tank drop outer surface (exterior color around the fuel gauge wire). Examples like this (most are not close in contrast) have lead some restorers in the past, to mistakenly think that the floor was the same color as the exterior  - especially in the 80-early 90's




Over this, in a smaller area the black black out paint from blacking out the pinch weld was applied over the floor color and exterior color. It stopped and started again at the forward and rearward corners of the rear wheel well as the spray stop/turned off

Plenty of threads on exterior color overspray and pinch weld black out on this site.

 

[lmennis]

One more question. What about the hood hinges and the latch that opens the hood? I know the hood hinges were not painted to match the car so to make them look right any suggestions? If I paint them, what color? Same for the hood latch?

[lmennis]

The engine is out and the engine compartment has been cleaned and we will go over it again. Once the engine was removed we noticed some welding that had been done at some point and cannot figure out why anyone would do this? My auto body guy -- an old school guy who is excellent -- will do his best to smooth this out before painting. The car has never been out of California since it was new and inspection of the car suggests that it has not been in an accident -- or at least never been in a major accident. Why would someone do welding here? No idea.