Author Topic: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet  (Read 5787 times)

Offline 196667Bob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1054
Re: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2021, 08:57:32 PM »
Scott : Thanks for the clarifications.

Just seems to me that, based on what I have seen over the years, the "greenish tint" should apply to a lot more than just 1965-66 years.

Bob
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67
MCA 04909

Offline Bob Gaines

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 9369
Re: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2021, 11:46:42 PM »
Scott : Thanks for the clarifications.

Just seems to me that, based on what I have seen over the years, the "greenish tint" should apply to a lot more than just 1965-66 years.

Bob
+1 It should because it does.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline 196667Bob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1054
Re: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2021, 12:16:27 AM »
Then shouldn't the MCA Judging Rules be revised to reflect that for all years, not just 1965-66 Shelbys ?

Bob
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67
MCA 04909

Online CharlesTurner

  • Charles Turner
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7688
Re: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2021, 01:25:46 AM »
Then shouldn't the MCA Judging Rules be revised to reflect that for all years, not just 1965-66 Shelbys ?

Bob


This was addressed about 10 or so years back when I was NHJ.  We took all the sheets and made them consistent across the board, mostly in section wording and points allocated, even up into 4th generation.  Since I stepped down, there has been some 'creep' in the rules as they have been revised many times since then and sometimes the changes aren't propagated to all years.  It's hard to reel it back in, but I think Scott is on the right track in collaborating with the Shelby ANHJ.  Basically, it comes down to someone taking the time to look at the bigger picture and ensure consistency.
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
Concours Mustang Forum Admin

Offline 196667Bob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1054
Re: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2021, 01:48:33 AM »
Charles : Thanks for your input. I believe you are correct ; it's taking the time to be consistent.

Bob
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67
MCA 04909

Offline Scott302

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2021, 03:10:50 PM »

This was addressed about 10 or so years back when I was NHJ.  We took all the sheets and made them consistent across the board, mostly in section wording and points allocated, even up into 4th generation.  Since I stepped down, there has been some 'creep' in the rules as they have been revised many times since then and sometimes the changes aren't propagated to all years.  It's hard to reel it back in, but I think Scott is on the right track in collaborating with the Shelby ANHJ.  Basically, it comes down to someone taking the time to look at the bigger picture and ensure consistency.
Unfortunately the consistency across all classes went out the window when the 65-66 guys completely re-wrote the body fit and finish section some years ago.  No one else wanted to go to the line by line setup that was done for 65-66.  There is resistance to changing any rules in certain classes regardless of the new knowledge gained. 
Now back to the pin finish debate... had the boss dig into the collection of low mileage original cars and here is what he found:
1st image 65 Galaxie 14 miles.  Described as "slightly goldish but could be patina"
2nd image 65 Mustang 6 cyl 1800 miles.  "This is the shot that almost caused me to think that the rivet was the same finish as the clamp itself."
3rd image 69 Mark III, 3500 miles
4th image 70 Mach 1 5200 miles. "Looks silver to me.  Perkins had the motor out to detail, but I doubt he touched the hold down clamp pins."
5th image 70 F100 44 miles.  "It has a 'hint' of goldish tone to it.  But just barely a hint."
« Last Edit: August 03, 2021, 06:42:41 PM by Scott302 »
Scott Halseth
Ford Product Manager
National Parts Depot
MCA#01776

Offline carlite65

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2411
Re: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2021, 05:09:57 PM »
'Unfortunately the consistency across all classes went out the window when the 65-66 guys completely re-wrote the body fit and finish section some years ago.  No one else wanted to go to the line by line setup that was done for 65-66.'

i was against this from the start. too cumbersome/time consuming. we were doing fine before that in that area. obviously i was outvoted.
5F09C331248

Offline rockhouse66

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 948
Re: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2021, 06:48:34 PM »
Scott
As I said at the beginning, I haven't seen a trace of color on the many original distributors that I have worked on or disassembled (all FE distributors, BTW).  You would think that the portion of the pin under the pivots would retain some original finish (if there were some).
Jim
'66 GT FB

Offline carlite65

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2411
Re: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2021, 07:17:19 PM »
a couple questions no one has asked yet.....were all distributors made at the same place??
any variance in colors between big block & smallblock?
5F09C331248

Offline 196667Bob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1054
Re: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2021, 08:01:15 PM »
Scott : Thanks for the further explanations and pictures. Based on the pictures, it appears that the majority of the rivets were just plain dull silver. That would explain why the many I have seen that I thought the green tint had just "gone away" with time, appears just dull silver, because they were.
Of course that some supplier's finish could have had a green tint to it, but wouldn't explain why all 1965-66 Shelby's have to have a "greenish tint".

Thanks again,

Bob
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67
MCA 04909

Offline Scott302

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2021, 05:19:09 PM »
Scott
As I said at the beginning, I haven't seen a trace of color on the many original distributors that I have worked on or disassembled (all FE distributors, BTW).  You would think that the portion of the pin under the pivots would retain some original finish (if there were some).
That's kinda what the field trip into the car collection was about.  I didn't originally tell Rick what color I was looking for, only trying to see if there was a finish on the rivets.  Rick checked again and he can find no trace of green on any car/truck and the only color is as he noted in the first run through.  I'm not seeing any way to substantiate a "must be green" rule.
The distributors would have been assembled at one of the Ford component parts plants or an Autolite plant.  Made some calls and no one at Ford, so far, has any clue.  Submitted the question to the Benson library and I am awaiting a response.
Regards,
Scott
Scott Halseth
Ford Product Manager
National Parts Depot
MCA#01776

Offline Scott302

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
Re: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2021, 05:30:40 PM »
So my Ford engineer friend came through for me.  He located the blueprint for the B-12145 rivet.  According to my friend the blueprint shows 2 materials; SAE CA260 brass and SAE 1010 steel.  The coating is listed as zinc plate ESF-M1P4-A.
Regards,
Scott
Scott Halseth
Ford Product Manager
National Parts Depot
MCA#01776

Offline Bob Gaines

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 9369
Re: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2021, 07:12:11 PM »
So my Ford engineer friend came through for me.  He located the blueprint for the B-12145 rivet.  According to my friend the blueprint shows 2 materials; SAE CA260 brass and SAE 1010 steel.  The coating is listed as zinc plate ESF-M1P4-A.
Regards,
Scott
I for one have not seen any in brass before. The obvious question is can you find a further description of what ESF-M1P4-A looks like . It didn't show up in the search's that I tried.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline Bossbill

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3283
  • In the middle of project hell
Re: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2021, 08:40:45 PM »
Not the look, just a pic from a stds doc:
Bill
Concours  Actual Ford Build 3/2/67 GT350 01375
Driven      6/6/70 0T02G160xxx Boss 302
Modified   5/18/65 5F09A728xxx Boss 347 Terminator-X 8-Stack
Race        65 2+2 Coupe conversion

Offline J_Speegle

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24632
Re: Distributor Cap Hold Down Clamp Rivet
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2021, 10:43:57 PM »
Finally got out to the small stack of original distributors as promised

The picture on the left best represents what I found on a couple of dozen units built in 68-69 and given to a high school for their usage so these have been stored well. In the upper right some have the plating/coating changing (were not like this ten years ago) and are turning a chalky yellow. Don't know why

Original coating is very thin and the goldish with a slight tint of green as I've seen on others. Believe describing them as "green" by itself would be historically incorrect just as it would be to describe, by itself, carburetors, ported vacuum switches, some emission parts and tubing

End of the clip and how they were finished off is just an addition detail I thought I would include



« Last Edit: August 10, 2021, 10:47:07 PM by J_Speegle »
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)