Topic: Is PI0 necessary on Metuchen Buck Tag to be a 65 GT?

[Herefordponies]

I'm hoping someone can help confirm...
I have an original owner dealership PO June 65
I have a computer punchout card with the salesman/owners last names June 65
I have a buck tag that matches the driver door ID tag and the vin stamped on driver firewall
Has anyone ever seen these compter cards? it is not like the usual factory card found under seats/under the dash wrapped in the harness.
it has all been passed down and kept protected by original owner

It's a 1965 GT Fastback White with Blue/White Luxury the PO clearly has the GT package listed etc...
I have checked many times... all the GT options... but certainly focused on the ones that can not just be added. it is all correct
I was told it might not be a factory GT because the buck tag does not have PI0 stamped... Is this true?
build in June 65 with matches the PO info...
Any help is appreciated... this is my 1st topic on this forum/site
Thank you

[jwc66k]

Welcome to the Forum. Lets; do a simple check. On the rear frame rails, both sides, is a hole used to mount the car on an assembly line fixture. If you stick a finger in that hole, to the rear of the car you will find an obstruction. It's the crush tubes for dual (the correct spelling - others like to fight a duel about it) exhaust mounting. Only GT optioned and those with the 289 HP engine have them.
The pictures show where and what is there.
Without the crush tube, it's not a factory GT.
Jim

[J_Speegle]

Welcome to the site. Hope you find the information and support here helpful in your research and restoration projects

I'm hoping someone can help confirm...
I have an original owner dealership PO June 65
I have a computer punchout card with the salesman/owners last names June 65
I have a buck tag that matches the driver door ID tag and the vin stamped on driver firewall
Has anyone ever seen these computer cards? ....................

Yes seen and discussed many times on the site. Insert the words "punch card" in the search tool and you will get a couple of dozen threads mentioning the cards and a few that drill down on this and related items. One has over 200 responses

It's a 1965 GT Fastback White with Blue/White Luxury the PO clearly has the GT package listed etc...
I have checked many times... all the GT options... but certainly focused on the ones that can not just be added. it is all correct
I was told it might not be a factory GT because the buck tag does not have PI0 stamped... Is this true?
build in June 65 with matches the PO info... ......

There are no GT related parts or features that can not be added or changed if the car has been rebuilt or restored. The determination will be a one that makes the most sense after the collection of all the facts (things that should or not be found on a GT) and the other evidence (panel replacement, factory welds....) examined and collected. IMHO

As just an observation the stamping (patterns) for 65 NJ buck tags is not always exactly the same and not sure how the person(s) assigned the task were instructed to organize the information or even the pattern of letters and numbers. Can offer that other examples that I've collected from cars likely built the same week or the week before had the PIO on the buck tag so we at least it was in usage during the production period when your car was being completed

[sgl66]

Your description of a light blue interior matches the buck tag interior code 62

The PO shows red vinyl, obviously not a match

[CharlesTurner]

Your description of a light blue interior matches the buck tag interior code 62

The PO shows red vinyl, obviously not a match

+1, that is not the purchase order for the car.  Notice the sale date, June 15, 1965.  Yet the date on the buck tag is July 16th.  Unfortunately, the punch card does not belong to the car either. 


Hope it wasn't purchased under the premise that it was a factory GT, because it's not looking like that's the case.  PI or PIO on Metuchen buck tags was usually pretty consistent.


Check the frame rail reinforcements as Jim suggested.  I'm going to bet they aren't there. 


One other thing to check is to pull the instrument cluster, sometimes a build sheet will be taped to the main wiring harness.  If that matches your car, then there will be a code to check to verify if it was intended to be built as a GT.

[sgl66]

Notice the sale date, June 15, 1965.  Yet the date on the buck tag is July 16th.  Unfortunately, the punch card does not belong to the car either. 

One other thing to check is to pull the instrument cluster, sometimes a build sheet will be taped to the main wiring harness.  If that matches your car, then there will be a code to check to verify if it was intended to be built as a GT.

FWIW, the purchase order for my Metuchen car is Sept 23 and it was bucked Oct 13 so a June 15 sale and July 16 buck doesn't sound unusual.

[Herefordponies]

Thank you for the replies...  yes I saw thr Red Vinyl listed...  and was a "red"flag
Lets remove the PO and Punch card...
Based on the Buck Tag date... that VIN matches the door and fender vin so, thats good!
and the rear reinforced frame rails do have a plate/obstruction on both sides...
Every other GT option seems to also be correct ... even the radiator support holes for the wires are punched out not cut.
So, can it be a GT even though the buck tag doesn't have the PI0???   it is a 65 maybe they added that later?
It certainly is a correct 63B as that is on the tag so, deluxe Int with blue/wite is correct.
I think its a GT but I was trying to get the warm and fuzzy confirmation... if the frame rail is it... than, I'm happy.
Sad about the PO and punch card... if is not for this car... I bet the owner of the true car (if it still exist on the road) would love to be reunited
Is there information that could help the upper right has partial vin thanks for your expertise!!

[sgl66]

Thank you for the replies...  yes I saw thr Red Vinyl listed...  and was a "red"flag
Lets remove the PO and Punch card...
Based on the Buck Tag date... that VIN matches the door and fender vin so, thats good!
and the rear reinforced frame rails do have a plate/obstruction on both sides...
Every other GT option seems to also be correct ... even the radiator support holes for the wires are punched out not cut.
So, can it be a GT even though the buck tag doesn't have the PI0???   it is a 65 maybe they added that later?
It certainly is a correct 63B as that is on the tag so, deluxe Int with blue/wite is correct.
I think its a GT but I was trying to get the warm and fuzzy confirmation... if the frame rail is it... than, I'm happy.
Sad about the PO and punch card... if is not for this car... I bet the owner of the true car (if it still exist on the road) would love to be reunited
Is there information that could help the upper right has partial vin thanks for your expertise!!

Somebody was making repop rear frame rails with supports at least 10 years ago so a very detailed inspection would be needed to determine if they are OEM or grafted in. Another easy thing is to remove the rear seat bottom and look at the exhaust supports. If they show ANY signs of being replaced, that's a big red flag at least to me. A dead giveaway is missing spot welds and the factory applied seam sealer.

There are some very specific things found and not found on factory GT's and as mentioned earlier, without documentation going back to day 1, it's a puzzle to figure out if it was built with parts in the factory or with repop/salvage parts.

[CharlesTurner]

Thank you for the replies...  yes I saw thr Red Vinyl listed...  and was a "red"flag
Lets remove the PO and Punch card...
Based on the Buck Tag date... that VIN matches the door and fender vin so, thats good!
and the rear reinforced frame rails do have a plate/obstruction on both sides...
Every other GT option seems to also be correct ... even the radiator support holes for the wires are punched out not cut.
So, can it be a GT even though the buck tag doesn't have the PI0???   it is a 65 maybe they added that later?
It certainly is a correct 63B as that is on the tag so, deluxe Int with blue/wite is correct.
I think its a GT but I was trying to get the warm and fuzzy confirmation... if the frame rail is it... than, I'm happy.
Sad about the PO and punch card... if is not for this car... I bet the owner of the true car (if it still exist on the road) would love to be reunited
Is there information that could help the upper right has partial vin thanks for your expertise!!

There's lots of information on this site on how to determine if a car is a factory GT.  There's a few very obvious ones (snubber plate).  These cars were being converted to GT's as far back as the 70's.


It's common to misinterpret the frame rail reinforcement and think that the leaf spring one is it.

[jwc66k]

It's common to misinterpret the frame rail reinforcement and think that the leaf spring one is it.

I think the picture covers that.

There's a few very obvious ones (snubber plate). 

Are you getting HP and GT mixed up?

These cars were being converted to GT's as far back as the 70's.

A MCA Gold Card Judge told a group of us at a judging seminar that - "If done right, so what?"
Jim

[J_Speegle]

I think the picture covers that.......................

Maybe if the picture showing the interior of the frame rail was larger and items/features labeled like you did in the picture above that it might help others less familiar with the important parts

.................A MCA Gold Card Judge told a group of us at a judging seminar that - "If done right, so what?"
Jim

MCA Judging in all Concours Classes is not about restoring a car back to the way a specific car was originally built. Just that it represents a car that could have been built. Color changes, interior changes (standard to pony for example), transmission, wheels, options and so on are all OK as long as the car has the general features and parts to represent what ever is being presented. There have been a number of efforts over the 40 years or so to try and not allow new door tags or now that they have access (it has been offered) to the Ford original documents showing how the cars were built in the 67+ years.

Of course this is a  subject better suited for another thread and section if the discussion needs to be continued.  Lots of experience here on the forum from people who participated in the challenges over decades with the differences between all the different camps and groups

[jwc66k]

Maybe if the picture showing the interior of the frame rail was larger and items/features labeled like you did in the picture above that it might help others less familiar with the important parts

Like this?
Jim

[jwc66k]

MCA Judging in all Concours Classes is not about restoring a car back to the way a specific car was originally built. Just that it represents a car that could have been built. Color changes, interior changes (standard to pony for example), transmission, wheels, options and so on are all OK as long as the car has the general features and parts to represent what ever is being presented. There have been a number of efforts over the 40 years or so to try and not allow new door tags or now that they have access (it has been offered) to the Ford original documents showing how the cars were built in the 67+ years.

It's a lot easier to "fake" certain options in a 64-66 Mustang than in 67 on, like exterior paint, interior paint, interior trim, added power steering, transmission, DSO, GT (the most difficult), as long as the options followed the VIN (specifically the engine code). This was discussed at several club meetings with two MCA Gold Card Judges, RC and BC (you know who I mean). At that time you could get a new door data tag from Marti Auto with your "changes/upgrades" included. I know this. I did this. I received a silver at a MCA show on a 66 GT Fastback that now speaks Australian.
Jim

[CharlesTurner]

Are you getting HP and GT mixed up?

Uh, no.  K code and GT A code share the same snubber plate welded under the car.

[jwc66k]

K code and GT A code share the same snubber plate welded under the car.

So a regular "A" code with an eight inch rear axle and a GT with an "A" code that also uses an eight inch real axle use different snubbers?
Jim