Topic: Cowl VIN tag removal

[Hipo giddyup]

 Ok, so we have just wrapped up getting the front frame rails repaired, shock towers and battery tray apron replaced, installed new torque boxes, toe boards, floor supports, and floor pans. Next on the list is a new cowl assembly. We just removed the windshield and I can easily get at the VIN tag riveted on the dash. Do you recommend drilling out the rivets and replacing with new? Or do I grind off the bottom of the rivets to remove and adhere the tag onto the new cowl using weld solvent,etc. while retaining the tops of the old rivets (to look as if it were never touched)?  What is acceptable? Thx

[cobrajet_carl]

I would definitely re-rivet it.

[Hipo giddyup]

Now unless I missed it, I’m not finding it in the hardware section/library. Anyone know the dimensions for replacement rivets? Steel I suppose?

[jwc66k]

Did you remove the old rivets? If not, when you do, measure them and document the non-measurable incidentals: head diameter (use dial calipers); body diameter; body material (use a magnet); was there a "pull mandrel" left inside?; the "pull mandrel" material (back to the magnet); the length is determined by the VIN tag thickness and the body mounting tab, but is going to be "standard" as in 1/8th or 1/16th of an inch increments, but based on "grip range", the two materials probably falling in the 0.060 to 0.130 panel range, probably the least of your worries. Take a picture or two.
Jim

[Hipo giddyup]

Thanks Jim. I will document when we start our work. I should be able to reply back with some pics.

[jwc66k]

Take notice of the head design. If I remember, there was an indentation around the mandrel hole which made that pop rivet "unique".
Jim

[67gtasanjose]

..
Or do I grind off the bottom of the rivets to remove and adhere the tag onto the new cowl using weld solvent,etc. while retaining the tops of the old rivets (to look as if it were never touched)?  What is acceptable? Thx

Obviously a "touchy" subject. I changed a dashboard on an old Dodge truck this way you mentioned...no issues when inspected by local BMV for how it presented...she did ask why the fender emblem was for a 3500 series and not a 1500 series but reasoning for my change there was because the emblems had been changed, which they HAD been changed.
I was happy it was a cold day, I didn't even break out in a sweat.
The Reality of that need to move the VIN was the same as yours and the truck was 100% legit and title was indeed for that very truck but if these State officials smell anything funny...well, you don't want that!

By the way, the old dash panel got stored in another "Parts" vehicle and of course had NO VIN riveted on it and once, during a police visit for vandalism, the officer sure raised a brow on the "no VIN" situation! Also, that truck was legit because I own 3 of these old trucks, two of which still see the road but these guys are trained to smell a rat so be careful!
The third truck is my snowplow truck and it also has no VIN in the dash but I keep that vin and COPIES of all 3 vehice records in the glove box and though I don't drive it much on the roads, I have proof on hand that the cab had been changed on that one, should the need present itself.

[cobrajet_carl]

You could also cut the metal with the tag and weld it on to the new cowl.

[J_Speegle]

Agreed - This is often a "touchy" subject and often does not get the posts one would expect but it is a questionable practice that someone would want to consider all options and concerns before diving in.

You don't want to be "that" guy or your car being "that" car

[1966KGT]

When my 1969 mustang convertible was in paint shop, I had taken windshield out and removed vin tag rivets and when color was applied put the tag back on with screws, a visiting DPS officer walked by and commented to the body guy that it would be very, very suspicious if the car was stopped, he unofficially recommended I better get rivets back in it, I obliged! I had another coupe that I measured and got pretty close size, looks factory. Just my experience.

[67gtasanjose]

Agreed - This is often a "touchy" subject and often does not get the posts one would expect but it is a questionable practice that someone would want to consider all options and concerns before diving in.

You don't want to be "that" guy or your car being "that" car

Agreed, the only LEGAL answer is that any method you attempt to do this, it will be ILLEGAL.

"Legitimacy" has nothing to do with the "Legality" of any choice, even on the examples I gave (those 3 vehicles could all be LEGALLY confiscated IF any official decided to, even though I have all 3 titles in my possession).

[cobrajet_carl]

Agreed, the only LEGAL answer is that any method you attempt to do this, it will be ILLEGAL.

"Legitimacy" has nothing to do with the "Legality" of any choice, even on the examples I gave (those 3 vehicles could all be LEGALLY confiscated IF any official decided to, even though I have all 3 titles in my possession).

At the least a grey area; there generally has to be an intent to defraud to warrant legal action.

[Hipo giddyup]

I would say that from the sounds of it, ANY tampering to the VIN , whether it is on the firewall, the VIN tag on the cowl of a 68-70 up Mustang, etc. and whether the area was re-welded using the still attached VIN stamping or tag, would be considered illegal. I can't let this worry me since this car is not going to be sold off and we are not misrepresenting it (ie. using a desirable VIN tag to pass off as an impostor car, etc.). Ultimately we need to repair a damaged part of the car that would be a safety/structural issue if left untouched. We will carry on the best way that seems fitting. Thank everyone for your insight!

[J_Speegle]

At the least a grey area; there generally has to be an intent to defraud to warrant legal action.

It's words like "generally" that always leaves the door of possibility open

Remember all too well the stories my dad shared where owners had to prove the car was there when VIN's and such had signs that they had been removed or tampered with.  In other cars owners came out ahead when stolen cars were returned in better condition that when they were stolen

[70cj428]

I would say that from the sounds of it, ANY tampering to the VIN , whether it is on the firewall, the VIN tag on the cowl of a 68-70 up Mustang, etc. and whether the area was re-welded using the still attached VIN stamping or tag, would be considered illegal

Federally, you are allowed to remove and replace the VIN if it is necessary for repairing the vehicle (you're also allowed to remove the VIN if your the owner of the Vehicle)

Here's a link to the applicable US code....

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/511

The problem you run into is that every state has there own laws pertaining to this issue, so what may be federally legal may be illegal in your state.

If I'm not mistaken, (some/all) 70 Mustangs use a special "Rosette" head rivit which can be hard to find / expensive .....

Hope this helps, John