Topic: Help with Phosphate Coating

[Kdclem]

Here's the first try at phosphate coating.  Looks very dark.  A faulty thermometer made me leave the parts in too long.  Note to self - Don't leave the thermometer in the stainless container while your bringing the solution up to temp.  Put thermometer in the solution only for a short time to test temp.  The close up shot shows parts a little dirty, that's because I brushed them a little with a piece of steel wool after they were oiled.   Anyone have any ideas about lightening it up besides starting over?

[Bob Gaines]

Here's the first try at phosphate coating.  Looks very dark.  A faulty thermometer made me leave the parts in too long.  Note to self - Don't leave the thermometer in the stainless container while your bringing the solution up to temp.  Put thermometer in the solution only for a short time to test temp.  The close up shot shows parts a little dirty, that's because I brushed them a little with a piece of steel wool after they were oiled.   Anyone have any ideas about lightening it up besides starting over?

You can tumble them and still benefit from the phosphate protection. All except the coil bracket which is good as is. FYI all of the parts in the picture with the exception of the coil bracket were bare steel when new on the assemblyline.

[jwc66k]

Here's the first try at phosphate coating.  Looks very dark.  A faulty thermometer made me leave the parts in too long.  Note to self - Don't leave the thermometer in the stainless container while your bringing the solution up to temp.  Put thermometer in the solution only for a short time to test temp.  The close up shot shows parts a little dirty, that's because I brushed them a little with a piece of steel wool after they were oiled.   Anyone have any ideas about lightening it up besides starting over?

Did you read "Phosphating 101" in the "Processes, Products and Techniques" section? My advice is to start over, use less phosphoric acid in the bath, get the bath up to temperature first (obviously) - and keep a watch handy. My first attempts were nothing to write home about either.
Jim

[Kdclem]

Bob, thanks for your reply.  With all my research I thought I had the right parts to Manganese.  But now your saying they were bare steel.  If bare steel, would it be wrong to blast parts, clean them and shoot them with a low gloss clear to protect them?  It seems crazy for them to have had NO protection at all when installed at the factory.

[Kdclem]

Yes, I read the post your referring too it was quite detailed.  The picture shows the gallon jug, which is what I used, but i also have the rust mort.  If the Rustmort can be used at a different strength mixture for this process it would definitely be a lot cheaper, since I paid $85 bucks for the gallon mixed at 4:1.

[Kdclem]

Picture added

[carlite65]

Bob, thanks for your reply.  With all my research I thought I had the right parts to Manganese.  But now your saying they were bare steel.  If bare steel, would it be wrong to blast parts, clean them and shoot them with a low gloss clear to protect them?  It seems crazy for them to have had NO protection at all when installed at the factory.

not crazy at all. that is what was done. clear will turn yellow. suggest you start over & do as instructed. have you considered boeshield as a protectant?

[jwc66k]

Some example (prior to phosphating):
Pic 1 - Bare steel parts, literally bare, you DO NOT WANT BARE STEEL PARTS ON YOUR CAR.
Pic 2 - More bare steel before phosphating.
Pic 3 - After phoshating.
Controlling the amount of phosphoric acid, and the time gets you the finish you want.
Jim

[Kdclem]

Jim, thanks for the photos and showing the correct colors the parts should be when finished. 
Wished I'd known about the Boeshield for protecting parts that stay unfinished steel.

[jwc66k]

I've used Boeshield and WD-40. What you see in the pictures are part treated with WD-40. I use it to also flush out hinge joints and other tight spaces of "crud" that bead blasting and the very hot phosphate bath missed. The phosphate bath usually softens up the "crud" (it's an old US Navy term). When the WD-40 runs clear, it's clean (I hope).
Here's a series of pictures of tie rod ends I cleaned up.
Pic 1: As removed from a 66 Mustang "K" front end.
Pic 2: Cleaned. The finish at this point is "close" to what a factory installed, heat treated steel item should look like (minus the dirt).
Pic 3: Ball joint sealed with Permatex. It was an experiment. It worked. I let the Permatex "cure" for about SIX weeks. (Patience Grasshopper.)
Pic 4: Bead blasted. The Permatex kept the glass beads out of the ball joint.
Pic 5: Phosphated, The Permatex kept the phosphoric bath out of the ball joint. A "twofer". As the arm is hot forged, then dropped into a special oil (quenched). it should have a dark appearance with some scale.
Not shown is 90w gear oil applied drop by drop into the ball joint to "assist" in functional lubrication. Also, I used a Dremmel wire brush to give the steel base a more "realistic" look.
This was all done in April-May, 2013.
Jim

[Bob Gaines]

Bob, thanks for your reply.  With all my research I thought I had the right parts to Manganese.  But now your saying they were bare steel.  If bare steel, would it be wrong to blast parts, clean them and shoot them with a low gloss clear to protect them?  It seems crazy for them to have had NO protection at all when installed at the factory.

If you blast them and clear them they will not look right. I know some friends who phosphate first them tumble them for a bare steel look because the phosphate helps fill in minor surface imperfections . The tumbling in the right media will make the steel look more like fresh new. Painting a faux bare steel finish can chip and rust making it necessary to take off to fix. The same can be said for clear coat over bare steel.Some people will nickel plate the bare steel parts. Bare steel covered with one of the many products like boeshield or the like need maintenance of coating depending on time and environment conditions the parts are exposed to. Some bare steel had cosmoline to protect from rust others had nothing . It depends also on what your intended usage of the car is going to be. Showing in concours  venues,occasional driving,ease of maintenance etc.  It is all about choices what works best for you.

[Kdclem]

Bob,  thank you.  Excellent info.  I didn't know there was a product available like Boeshield or Cosmoline for coating the parts that should be "Natural".  Of course it's easy to just paint a part and call it good.  My goal was to make the additional effort and restore as original.  It's a learning process and making mistakes along the way is a normal routine....  I appreciate everyone's help.

I re-blasted all the parts and selected only the ones that I know had the Phosphate coating.  Even at 4 minutes into the cook, parts were too dark.  Must be the mix at 4:1 is too strong.  The product I'm using you can see in the photo above and it's designed for blueing weapons, but it's still called "Manganese Phosphate" .  Maybe not all "Manganese Phosphate" is created equally.  I could probably cut it's strength in half, adjust the cook time and get the desired color and coating on the parts.

[jwc66k]

Even at 4 minutes into the cook, parts were too dark.  Must be the mix at 4:1 is too strong. 

Each supplier of phosphoric acid "concentrate" has different instructions for mixes. The one I've been using says 2 ounces of concentrate per gallon of water. My (stainless) tank hold 2 1/2 gallons of liguid but I use 1 1/2 ounce of concentrate per gallon. I also keep the parts I want to have a "lite" finish in the bath for a minute and a half then immediately drop them into clean, cool water for a quick dip. That "drop" stops the process, rinses the parts and cools them for handling. I like air drying especially when the humidity is under 30 percent. Hey, it's California.
Jim

[Kdclem]

These also look like they are Phosphate Coated.  Can anyone verify that?  Thanks.

[jwc66k]

What are they? They look painted.
I do see a pressed in nut. Those are usually have a different finish than the finished part, sometimes zinc plated.
Jim