Topic: Fastback in the Paint Shop need advice

[bullitt68]

My car has been in the paint shop for about a year now and we are only finally getting closer to paint. However the body shop says that they need to make the car a roller to do the body work. FYI my car does not require any body work as I have a 100% rust free damage free car. The body shop says that they need to mock it up to do body work. FYI every part going back on the car is original and nothing new is being added. The car will be assembled the same way as before it was brought in.

I have spoken to some other guys with mustangs and they said their cars were not done this way. My car is currently on a body cart and has been media blasted and is now in primer. So I am just curious if guys are always assembling cars as rollers first. It does make sense to me when the car has a subframe of full frame. Since I am not a body guy I thought I would ask the questions first. When I originally brought my car to the shop on the body cart I just assumed that it would be painted on the cart and that I would do all of the assembly after it was painted.

Any suggestions are appreciated

Thank you

[Bob Gaines]

My car has been in the paint shop for about a year now and we are only finally getting closer to paint. However the body shop says that they need to make the car a roller to do the body work. FYI my car does not require any body work as I have a 100% rust free damage free car. The body shop says that they need to mock it up to do body work. FYI every part going back on the car is original and nothing new is being added. The car will be assembled the same way as before it was brought in.

I have spoken to some other guys with mustangs and they said their cars were not done this way. My car is currently on a body cart and has been media blasted and is now in primer. So I am just curious if guys are always assembling cars as rollers first. It does make sense to me when the car has a subframe of full frame. Since I am not a body guy I thought I would ask the questions first. When I originally brought my car to the shop on the body cart I just assumed that it would be painted on the cart and that I would do all of the assembly after it was painted.

Any suggestions are appreciated

Thank you

A red flag goes up in my mind if the body shop insists that they need to take the car off of the cart and make a roller by putting on the Mustang suspension and steering to do the body work. A knowledgeable body shop will want to install and test fit fenders ,hood doors ,trunk lid ,front valance etc. for alignment and make any adjustments. You are basically assembling the body. After test fitting and making all adjustments and bodywork the parts are taken off to be painted separately. The doors were painted on the hinges at Ford but most shops shoot them separately. This can all be done on the body cart. Maybe the small wheels on the cart make it hard to move around a shop but I can't think of a good reason to put suspension and steering on it. All of the knowledgeable Mustang /Shelby shops I know paint them on carts to mimic the way it was done at Ford. The cheaper driver car paint jobs are the ones that paint the car all assembled and also on wheels tires and steering.Are they planning to leave the suspension on when they paint the underside and or paint the outside?  If you want the kind of assemblyline quality I think you do given your history of questions and response I would have a sit down with the shop and discuss your expectations for the job . You may find out that they are not prepared to do it the way you want. This is the best time to find that out not down the road when the work is done to a unsatisfactory level.     

[ruppstang]

+1 I can see no reason to reinstall the suspension before paint. After all of your hard work detailing suspension could turn in to a disaster if it was on the car when painted.

Here is a picture of our car with the doors being fitted on the cart.

[bullitt68]

Thanks Bob I appreciate the advice. Just a few point of interest.

1. The  shop told me that they need to put the car on the suspension and with the motor in the car before they can do any body work because if they don't it could cause problems with alignment of the fenders etc. (It seems that this is how they like to do it) and they like to do body work this way. As you can see my car needs virtually no body work other than panel fitment.

2. Makes sense to me to go through this process on full frame and unibody cars that are being mated to a body as things do shift and end up out of alignment etc

3.I just want to make sure that before I go to meet with the body shop that I have advice from the experts and guys who do this all the time, since myself nor the shop have a lot of experience restoring Mustangs to this level

4. Just to back track and recap I originally brought the car into thew shop to just paint the engine bay. It was a roller. They did paint the engine bay and dash and cleaned up the underside of the car. Once I got the car back to my shop I put the car on the body cart and decided to send the car back to the shop so that they could clean up inside the trunk and do some paint touch ups etc.

5. After the trunk the next step was to wet sand and polish the car. I was then told that that would be a problem as there were small pinholes in the paint most likely caused by moisture in the air lines.

6. Then I decided that we would paint the car since it was already stripped and the car appeared to be in great shape. Then I was told the same thing again about the tiny bubbles and there could be adhesion issues. I then asked how much more to strip the car to bare metal. Then we proceeded to strip the car. On one hand I am ok with that since I know know what a great car I have and how rust free and clean the body is. Before that I was just assuming, albeit a very time consuming and expensive experiment indeed

7. So after all this I find myself at the point of having wasted money on bad decisions and would really like to stop the bleeding and get the car finished correctly and to the high quality I expect. While I can appreciate that the shop means well by making the car a roller, I just don't see the point if the car can be painted and mocked up while it is on the cart. Ultimately I am looking to maximize my investment and spend wisely and only when and where required. Sorry fo all this backstory, but thought some perspective may make giving advice easier if you had the full story that has been unfolding over the past year.

Photos of the car before I brought it into the shop for reference

[bullitt68]

+1 I can see no reason to reinstall the suspension before paint. After all of your hard work detailing suspension could turn in to a disaster if it was on the car when painted.

Here is a picture of our car with the doors being fitted on the cart.

Thanks I am glad that I decided to double check and not just take the shops word for it. I have been pushing back since they suggested that we make the car a roller for the very reasons you mentioned. I don't want to waste any time or money on this project as I will already be upside down in it (but will have a very nice car) but I always try to make sure I don't spend more on a car than it is worth. I am fast approaching that point now.

[bullitt68]

+1 I can see no reason to reinstall the suspension before paint. After all of your hard work detailing suspension could turn in to a disaster if it was on the car when painted.

Here is a picture of our car with the doors being fitted on the cart.

This is what my paint shop told me when I asked him why the car needs to be put on its suspension.

"I think you get a MUCH better fit when you have the car sitting on the ground. My guys have done countless award winners and this is the way they do it.
Doing body work on a cart is like fitting clothes while sitting in a chair"

[J_Speegle]

I can see weighting the doors to replicate the weight of the windows and hardware but agree the dolly carts is what we typically see used and many of us have used for years without  issues. Fitting of fenders and the like is sometimes done before the car is fully disassembled with success but you've passed by that point and moving forward with the suggests already offered should work fine. Would be interesting to hear how many hours they estimate for putting the suspension back on and then taking it off again.

Agree with Bob that you, Highly likely, have not had a meeting of the minds as to expectations and key (as well as small) points. Often when I visit restorations that are starting out and we talk to the shops we've had many realize and state that they can't or are not prepared to to that level of work once the expectations are made clear and exacting.

[bullitt68]

I can see weighting the doors to replicate the weight of the windows and hardware but agree the dolly carts is what we typically see used and many of us have used for years without  issues. Fitting of fenders and the like is sometimes done before the car is fully disassembled with success but you've passed by that point and moving forward with the suggests already offered should work fine. Would be interesting to hear how many hours they estimate for putting the suspension back on and then taking it off again for the second time

Agree with Bob that you, Highly likely, have not had a meeting of the minds as to expectations and key (as well as small) points. Often when I visit restorations that are starting out and we talk to the shops we've had many realize and state that they can't or are not prepared to to that level of work once the expectations are made clear and exacting.

Thanks Jeff. I removed all of the suspension myself and would also be installing the suspension to make it a roller if we went that route, so they are not charging me for any of that work. I do all my own works except for paint & body work as I don't have a faculty that is suitable for that type of work. I do however paint all of my smaller parts as I have a small paint booth (not big enough for a full size car) with proper paint guns, down draft fan etc

[1969 Cale II]

Think about how Ford built these cars, body was build on a buck/frame then it went to paint. Doors and deck lid hung. It spent most of the time on this body buck ( I think) until suspension. And then the fenders go on last. I build my cars on my own home made frame and when the suspension is done it goes on the ground and then the fenders go on. Some shops paint the car on a rotisserie. Too bad the shop wants the extra work to try and keep things clean.

[Bob Gaines]

This is what my paint shop told me when I asked him why the car needs to be put on its suspension.

"I think you get a MUCH better fit when you have the car sitting on the ground. My guys have done countless award winners and this is the way they do it.
Doing body work on a cart is like fitting clothes while sitting in a chair"

I would find out if any of the numerous award winners were high level national concours winners at any of the recognized Mustang/Shelby venues. I suspect not.  I know numerous of Shelby and Mustang shops that do it the other way with success at the highest levels . With that said a 390/428 can cause the front shock tower to shift some when the engine is installed. That is typically the only variable. Of course from the doors and back the suspension has no significant relation to the body. What many knowledgeable shops do is use a genuine (not repro) 67/68 Shelby export brace as a tool to make sure the shock towers are properly indexed . Make sure the export brace drops on smoothly . The shocks towers will typically need to be pushed apart with a porta power (if a BB). Sometimes sucked in but more times pushed apart. Once you get the export brace to fit smoothly that is your base line. Leave it bolted in place while they build/fit the body parts around that. After the car is painted and put together IF the weight of engine installation causes the shock towers to move you push them back into place to the point that the export brace fits smoothly and you are at your baseline again that you built the car to. You can do the pushing /spreading apart of the shock tower with a BB in place if need be. Of course you could choose to use a set of unrestored suspension parts to attach to the car to use . I think you picked the wrong body shop IMO.You still didn't answer how they are going to paint the underside . If you don't get them to agree to do it your way they can always use the non suspension thing as a reason to get out of fixing a issue that comes up later blaming it on not following their advice.

[bullitt68]

I would find out if any of the numerous award winners were high level national concours winners at any of the recognized Mustang/Shelby venues. I suspect not.  I know numerous of Shelby and Mustang shops that do it the other way with success at the highest levels . With that said a 390/428 can cause the front shock tower to shift some when the engine is installed. That is typically the only variable. Of course from the doors and back the suspension has no significant relation to the body. What many knowledgeable shops do is use a genuine (not repro) 67/68 Shelby export brace as a tool to make sure the shock towers are properly indexed . Make sure the export brace drops on smoothly . The shocks towers will typically need to be pushed apart with a porta power (if a BB). Sometimes sucked in but more times pushed apart. Once you get the export brace to fit smoothly that is your base line. Leave it bolted in place while they build/fit the body parts around that. After the car is painted and put together IF the weight of engine installation causes the shock towers to move you push them back into place to the point that the export brace fits smoothly and you are at your baseline again that you built the car to. You can do the pushing /spreading apart of the shock tower with a BB in place if need be. Of course you could choose to use a set of unrestored suspension parts to attach to the car to use . I think you picked the wrong body shop IMO.You still didn't answer how they are going to paint the underside . If you don't get them to agree to do it your way they can always use the non suspension thing as a reason to get out of fixing a issue that comes up later blaming it on not following their advice.

Thanks Bob. The underside has already been painted. It is only the exterior, engine bay and dash that needs to be painted. My understanding is that they will paint the fenders and all the other parts off the car. They want the car to be a roller so they can mock up the doors, fenders, hood etc. They are planning to paint the dash and engine bay after all of the body work/block sanding and final primer is done

The export brace is a good idea. I have an repro export brace, but it has never been installed on the car. I had the original shock tower braces on my car. What is a porta power?

They have never painted an award winning concours Mustang. This would be the first Mustang they have painted to this level. Normally the Mustangs they do are rollers. They have done plenty of frame off cars however. They have painted a few cars for me before just not a Mustang.

[bullitt68]

Think about how Ford built these cars, body was build on a buck/frame then it went to paint. Doors and deck lid hung. It spent most of the time on this body buck ( I think) until suspension. And then the fenders go on last. I build my cars on my own home made frame and when the suspension is done it goes on the ground and then the fenders go on. Some shops paint the car on a rotisserie. Too bad the shop wants the extra work to try and keep things clean.

My understanding is that they will paint the fenders and all the other parts off the car. They want the car to be a roller so they can mock up the doors, fenders, hood etc. They are planning to paint the dash and engine bay after all of the body work/block sanding and final primer is done

[Bob Gaines]

Thanks Bob. The underside has already been painted. It is only the exterior, engine bay and dash that needs to be painted. My understanding is that they will paint the fenders and all the other parts off the car. They want the car to be a roller so they can mock up the doors, fenders, hood etc. They are planning to paint the dash and engine bay after all of the body work/block sanding and final primer is done

The export brace is a good idea. I have an repro export brace, but it has never been installed on the car. I had the original shock tower braces on my car. What is a porta power?

They have never painted an award winning concours Mustang. This would be the first Mustang they have painted to this level. Normally the Mustangs they do are rollers. They have done plenty of frame off cars however. They have painted a few cars for me before just not a Mustang.

You can do all of the alignment on the cart using the procedures that have already been discussed previously like weighting the doors and export brace for the shock towers. Not painting concours award winning Mustangs is the point. They may be gifted at painting other cars but not familiar with the assemblyline build painting expectations of a high level concours Mustang type paint job. Concours in this context means to look as close to factory as possible not just shiny .  If you are going to use the export brace as a alignment tool the genuine Ford one is the best choice because the repros are typically made to inferior quality and standards.You can't count on it made to the same shape as the Ford spec engineering standards that Ford parts are made to be. The export brace in your situation is meant as a alignment tool to make sure the top side of shock towers are in there correct location in relation to the cowl. You would put it on again once the engine is installed to check for alignment as I previously mentioned. It should drop on with little or no effort to install if the attachment points (cowl and shock towers) are indexed properly .You would remove the export brace and substitute the stock Mustang braces for your stock originality look. Although the export brace is superior in providing extra upper rigidity to your Mustang over the stock thin sheet metal  separate braces the export brace is not factory correct for every Mustang application. A porta power is a generic term short for a smaller portable hydraulic equipment versions of frame shop alignment tools . It is basically a hydraulic type ram tool that has different pushing and pulling attachments . It can be rented or many of us to continually work on cars buy them for varying uses . Harbour freight sell a inexpensive version for example . https://www.harborfreight.com/4-ton-heavy-duty-portable-hydraulic-equipment-kit-62115.html . You may be locked into doing it their way if you choose to stay with the same shop . If you can not come to some understanding on how they will proceed you may have to install suspension or risk compromising their warranty on fit . Worse case if you have to put back suspension I would suggest putting back used unrestored parts otherwise it will get paint overspray on all of the parts when they paint the car and ruin your restoration effort. FYI you can't wrap the suspension good enough to not get overspray somewhere on the parts. Many people have tried that paint gets into the tiniest of openings .

[bullitt68]

You can do all of the alignment on the cart using the procedures that have already been discussed previously like weighting the doors and export brace for the shock towers. Not painting concours award winning Mustangs is the point. They may be gifted at painting other cars but not familiar with the assemblyline build painting expectations of a high level concours Mustang type paint job. Concours in this context means to look as close to factory as possible not just shiny .  If you are going to use the export brace as a alignment tool the genuine Ford one is the best choice because the repros are typically made to inferior quality and standards.You can't count on it made to the same shape as the Ford spec engineering standards that Ford parts are made to be. The export brace in your situation is meant as a alignment tool to make sure the top side of shock towers are in there correct location in relation to the cowl. You would put it on again once the engine is installed to check for alignment as I previously mentioned. It should drop on with little or no effort to install if the attachment points (cowl and shock towers) are indexed properly .You would remove the export brace and substitute the stock Mustang braces for your stock originality look. Although the export brace is superior in providing extra upper rigidity to your Mustang over the stock thin sheet metal  separate braces the export brace is not factory correct for every Mustang application. A porta power is a generic term short for a smaller portable hydraulic equipment versions of frame shop alignment tools . It is basically a hydraulic type ram tool that has different pushing and pulling attachments . It can be rented or many of us to continually work on cars buy them for varying uses . Harbour freight sell a inexpensive version for example . https://www.harborfreight.com/4-ton-heavy-duty-portable-hydraulic-equipment-kit-62115.html . You may be locked into doing it their way if you choose to stay with the same shop . If you can not come to some understanding on how they will proceed you may have to install suspension or risk compromising their warranty on fit . Worse case if you have to put back suspension I would suggest putting back used unrestored parts otherwise it will get paint overspray on all of the parts when they paint the car and ruin your restoration effort. FYI you can't wrap the suspension good enough to not get overspray somewhere on the parts. Many people have tried that paint gets into the tiniest of openings .

Thanks Bob that is great information

[bullitt68]

You can do all of the alignment on the cart using the procedures that have already been discussed previously like weighting the doors and export brace for the shock towers. Not painting concours award winning Mustangs is the point. They may be gifted at painting other cars but not familiar with the assemblyline build painting expectations of a high level concours Mustang type paint job. Concours in this context means to look as close to factory as possible not just shiny .  If you are going to use the export brace as a alignment tool the genuine Ford one is the best choice because the repros are typically made to inferior quality and standards.You can't count on it made to the same shape as the Ford spec engineering standards that Ford parts are made to be. The export brace in your situation is meant as a alignment tool to make sure the top side of shock towers are in there correct location in relation to the cowl. You would put it on again once the engine is installed to check for alignment as I previously mentioned. It should drop on with little or no effort to install if the attachment points (cowl and shock towers) are indexed properly .You would remove the export brace and substitute the stock Mustang braces for your stock originality look. Although the export brace is superior in providing extra upper rigidity to your Mustang over the stock thin sheet metal  separate braces the export brace is not factory correct for every Mustang application. A porta power is a generic term short for a smaller portable hydraulic equipment versions of frame shop alignment tools . It is basically a hydraulic type ram tool that has different pushing and pulling attachments . It can be rented or many of us to continually work on cars buy them for varying uses . Harbour freight sell a inexpensive version for example . https://www.harborfreight.com/4-ton-heavy-duty-portable-hydraulic-equipment-kit-62115.html . You may be locked into doing it their way if you choose to stay with the same shop . If you can not come to some understanding on how they will proceed you may have to install suspension or risk compromising their warranty on fit . Worse case if you have to put back suspension I would suggest putting back used unrestored parts otherwise it will get paint overspray on all of the parts when they paint the car and ruin your restoration effort. FYI you can't wrap the suspension good enough to not get overspray somewhere on the parts. Many people have tried that paint gets into the tiniest of openings .

Hi Bob I think I have a better idea of what the body shop wants to do now. Step one: install some used suspension parts for mock up and blocking etc, and then once the mock up is done remove the old suspension. Then put it back on the cart and paint it, and then remove from the car mounted on my restored suspension.

They also want to drop a motor in for weight, but not my restored motor. Does this make sense? It is more work for sure, but I will do all of the suspension install and removal