Topic: 67 Battery Discussion -

[Bob Gaines]

NOTE: The first six posts were separated from the thread discussing the 67 Battery hold down Z bracket so that proper focus and attention can be given to each.

The Shelby has the hole. It has the heavy duty battery. Wonder if that is the reason.
7R01C189340 parts cars est date 06C does not.

The heavy duty battery in this case is the 24F battery. It may while have something to do with that however the issue in thinking that may have something to do with that is all GT500's got the 24 F battery . Not all GT500's got the the extra bracket in fact very few proportionally. Dimensionally the heavy duty and base 24 F battery are identical to the base 24 F battery. The difference between the base 24 F battery and the heavy duty 24 F is internal capacity .  Possibly a slight weight difference but they seem to weigh very close to the same .  Regardless the extra bracket is not a running change given the seemingly random pattern (until we figure it out) throughout production.

[Bob Gaines]

FYI the heavy duty battery has red caps. The base battery had yellow caps. The red cap battery in Jeffs picture has red caps. It is ether a heavy duty battery with no extra bracket or someone has messed with the battery and put red caps on a otherwise base battery.

[ruppstang]

FYI the heavy duty battery has red caps. The base battery had yellow caps. The red cap battery in Jeffs picture has red caps. It is ether a heavy duty battery with no extra bracket or someone has messed with the battery and put red caps on a otherwise base battery.

Bob I believe you are correct concerning big blocks, but in the other engines a 22F was the standard and the 24F was the heavy duty. I am not sure what color of caps heavy duty may have had.
A few years ago I restored a late 67 200 I6 that had a 22F and the Z bracket. It is unclear to me what triggered it's use.

[Bob Gaines]

Bob I believe you are correct concerning big blocks, but in the other engines a 22F was the standard and the 24F was the heavy duty. I am not sure what color of caps heavy duty may have had.
A few years ago I restored a late 67 200 I6 that had a 22F and the Z bracket. It is unclear to me what triggered it's use.

Marty, I am not aware of a heavy duty version of the 22F battery in 65,66,or 67. The 22F was a base battery for Mustang 65-67 and the 24 F was the base battery for the new for 67 Big block.The base 24 F battery the big block used was lower capacity then the heavy duty version. The lower capacity 24 F battery used as a base battery in a 67 big block had yellow battery caps for identification. In 65-67 the base battery used the yellow caps and the heavy duty version used the red caps .  The heavy duty 24F battery had higher capacity then the base 24F battery. The heavy duty version of the 24 F battery had red caps for easy identification . The battery case also has the amp hour capacity which is different between the base battery and the heavy duty version but is admittedly hard to read especially when installed in a car. As far as I know a heavy duty battery option regardless of big block or small block would be the 24F higher capacity battery identified with the red caps in 67.  Reading about 22 F battery car with the extra bracket is a first for me . Unless some kind of mistake anomaly the extra bracket on a non heavy duty battery equipped car would seem to dispel that line of thought reasoning for the brackets usage.

[ruppstang]

Marty, I am not aware of a heavy duty version of the 22F battery in 65,66,or 67. The 22F was a base battery for Mustang 65-67 and the 24 F was the base battery for the new for 67 Big block.The base 24 F battery the big block used was lower capacity then the heavy duty version. The lower capacity 24 F battery used as a base battery in a 67 big block had yellow battery caps for identification. In 65-67 the base battery used the yellow caps and the heavy duty version used the red caps .  The heavy duty 24F battery had higher capacity then the base 24F battery. The heavy duty version of the 24 F battery had red caps for easy identification . The battery case also has the amp hour capacity which is different between the base battery and the heavy duty version but is admittedly hard to read especially when installed in a car. As far as I know a heavy duty battery option regardless of big block or small block would be the 24F higher capacity battery identified with the red caps in 67.  Reading about 22 F battery car with the extra bracket is a first for me . Unless some kind of mistake anomaly the extra bracket on a non heavy duty battery equipped car would seem to dispel that line of thought reasoning for the brackets usage.

I do not think that there was a HD version of the 22F. From what I read in the 67 option list the HD battery up grade in a small block was the 24F.
Here is how it reads.
BATTERY - HEAVY DUTY - 55 Amp. (Standard on 390 V-8 with C-O-M) ............$7.44
I do not know what C-O-M stands for.

Both our 67 GTA C code and our 68 GT350 have the HD battery on their option lists. Both have a 24F and would have had 22Fs.

[Bob Gaines]

I do not think that there was a HD version of the 22F. From what I read in the 67 option list the HD battery up grade in a small block was the 24F.
Here is how it reads.
BATTERY - HEAVY DUTY - 55 Amp. (Standard on 390 V-8 with C-O-M) ............$7.44
I do not know what C-O-M stands for.

Both our 67 GTA C code and our 68 GT350 have the HD battery on their option lists. Both have a 24F and would have had 22Fs.

I suppose I confused the thought that you implied that there was a 22F HD version because of the the previous post discussion about the extra battery hold down bracket being used possibly in combination when the HD battery was used . The description of a 6cyl car that had the bracket and also a 22F battery seemed to imply a HD version given the previous post from my perspective. It is obvious to me now that you were just reporting a out of the ordinary observation on the 6cyl car and its extra battery bracket. I am glad to see that we are on the same page. 

[Bossbill]

Maybe this can help. It's for Shelbys but I think we can read between the lines on SB v. BB v. A/C, etc

Maybe break this out into its own battery thread here?

• Yr...Model......A/C...Smog....55A....Group....Caps.....Caution...Autolite
• 65...GT350.................................22.........Yellow....Yellow....No Color
• 66..GT350..................................22.........Yellow....Yellow....No Color
• 66..GT350.....X...........................24.........Red.......Yellow....No Color
• 67 GT350...................................22.........Yellow....Yellow....No Color
• 67 GT350......X...or..X....or....X.....24..........Red.......Yellow....No Color
• 67 GT500...................................24.........Yellow.....Yellow....No Color
• 67 GT500......X...or..X....or....X.....24..........Red.......Yellow....No Color

[J_Speegle]

Maybe this can help. It's for Shelbys but I think we can read between the lines on SB v. BB v. A/C, etc

Maybe break this out into its own battery thread here?

Broken/separated out. Will modify location if this expands again to all year or classic year discussion like others

[67gtasanjose]

I do not think that there was a HD version of the 22F. From what I read in the 67 option list the HD battery up grade in a small block was the 24F.
Here is how it reads.
BATTERY - HEAVY DUTY - 55 Amp. (Standard on 390 V-8 with C-O-M) ............$7.44
I do not know what C-O-M stands for.

Both our 67 GTA C code and our 68 GT350 have the HD battery on their option lists. Both have a 24F and would have had 22Fs.

My Southern Cal. DSO 289 Thermactor with factory Select-Aire A/C, came surprisingly with a 22F. My Marti report DOES NOT have Heavy Duty battery called out on it.

I used to believe that the use of the 22F was for clearance issues with the Thermactor filter but in other discussions, that was ruled out. A car built  with A/C at the factory, you would think that HD Battery and charging system would be standard with the A/C as a package but obviously not in this example. I believe Marty (ruppstang) just mentioned his A/C non-Thermactor example HAS Heavy duty battery called out, built 2 days after my example. It would appear that Heavy Duty battery option is a separate line on the order sheet and if it wasn't checked, you did not get it...not part of the AC package.

Without derailing the thread, I assume (hate this word) the standard alternator would go with the standard battery option. Maybe a topic for another thread but a car with A/C needs a better battery and charging system than a car without and "engineering wise" (I know, a real oxymoron ~yes John, I thought of you), you would think the two items (battery and charging system) would go hand-in-hand. I do know the accessories post on the back of my ignition switch is so overloaded with connectors it once melted from resistance heat so I know the engineers wouldn't have NOT been thinking about all of these options overloading the charging systems. These guys tend to overthink rather than under think these things.

This leads me to another thought and causes me to wonder if in SOME examples (like mine), if there could have been a higher capacity 22F BATTERY used when they did not actually call it out on the build sheet, BECAUSE it has A/C as well as numerous other electrical options.

[ruppstang]

My Southern Cal. DSO 289 Thermactor with factory Select-Aire A/C, came surprisingly with a 22F. My Marti report DOES NOT have Heavy Duty battery called out on it.

I used to believe that the use of the 22F was for clearance issues with the Thermactor filter but in other discussions, that was ruled out. A car built  with A/C at the factory, you would think that HD Battery and charging system would be standard with the A/C as a package but obviously not in this example. I believe Marty (ruppstang) just mentioned his A/C non-Thermactor example HAS Heavy duty battery called out, built 2 days after my example. It would appear that Heavy Duty battery option is a separate line on the order sheet and if it wasn't checked, you did not get it...not part of the AC package.

Without derailing the thread, I assume (hate this word) the standard alternator would go with the standard battery option. Maybe a topic for another thread but a car with A/C needs a better battery and charging system than a car without and "engineering wise" (I know, a real oxymoron ~yes John, I thought of you), you would think the two items (battery and charging system) would go hand-in-hand. I do know the accessories post on the back of my ignition switch is so overloaded with connectors it once melted from resistance heat so I know the engineers wouldn't have NOT been thinking about all of these options overloading the charging systems. These guys tend to overthink rather than under think these things.

This leads me to another thought and causes me to wonder if in SOME examples (like mine), if there could have been a higher capacity 22F BATTERY used when they did not actually call it out on the build sheet, BECAUSE it has A/C as well as numerous other electrical options.

Richard did your car come with a heat shield on the 22F? It should have if it had factory AC. I have never seen a heat shield on a 22F battery.

I have my doubts about a high capacity 22F. It seems likely that if it was truly necessary such as the case of the 390 24F would have been standard with AC. It is going to be next to impossibly to know for sure there are so few cars out there with original batteries, alternators and voltage regulators.

[67gta289]

Richard, I've thought about this a couple of times, but never transferred the thoughts to the keyboard...so here you go.

When it comes to A/C it would make sense that engine temperature control will be a problem. The incoming temperature of the radiator will go up when cabin cooling is occurring, which will reduce the radiator capability of rejecting engine heat.  So bigger radiators, better fan design, shrouds, higher idles, etc. all make perfect sense.

But from an electrical perspective the single largest load by far is the blower motor.  I've measured over the years motors in the 17-20 amp range.  This is the largest load in an engine running scenario. The starter of course has much more of a draw but once the starting process is over so is that load.  The thing though is that a heater only blower motor and the heater-A/C blower motor is probably no different, or if it is would not be by much.  I have not measured both, but can do that at some point.  So if we continue with the premise that a blower motor is a blower motor, and since the dampers are vacuum operated, the only additional load for A/C would be the compressor clutch.  While these are pretty beefy, I would guess (assume) that they are in the 5A range.  I'll have to go measure that now also.

My conclusion is that I see the need for better cooling, but I don't see a need for a heavy duty battery/charging system for A/C.

When it comes to a big block, I suppose that the additional effort needed to turn it over would result in a higher capacity system (alternator/battery) so that multiple start attempts (with failures) in a short duration would be possible.  The typical scenario that us over-thinkers talk about is being stopped at a railway crossing, then taking off and stalling out on the tracks.  How many cranking events would you want in reserve under those conditions?

To wind this up, the biggest problem with batteries (and recovery after starting) is in extreme cold weather.  Someone in Bemidji in winter (-40 degrees, F and C) with a 250 cu in 6 cylinder is going to need more power (with a nod to Tim the tool man) than someone in LA with a 390 in summer.  If we had access to the database I would bet that the further north the car was destined, the more heavy duty batteries were ordered.

Let me be clear that my commentary is intended to be a practical discussion of the need, and does not reflect what Ford actually did.  For that, as always, we need documentation and untouched examples.

[67gtasanjose]

Thanks guys, your input helps understand, to the best of our "current" knowledge (yes John, all pun intended).

Bob, no heat shield was found on the car in 1978, that leaves 10 years for someone else to leave it off the car. Battery wasn't in the car when it was bought.

John, I do agree with you about the Heavy Duty battery being more likely destination-based when considering it on an order form. This is why I mentioned my southern California DSO, I figured that was a factor.

My plans are to install the factory Heavy Duty option, though not original to my build (according to the Marti Report) with the 55 amp optional alternator, a 24F battery and a heat shield.

"More Power" has it's perks.

[Bob Gaines]

Thanks guys, your input helps understand, to the best of our "current" knowledge (yes John, all pun intended).

Bob, no heat shield was found on the car in 1978, that leaves 10 years for someone else to leave it off the car. Battery wasn't in the car when it was bought.

John, I do agree with you about the Heavy Duty battery being more likely destination-based when considering it on an order form. This is why I mentioned my southern California DSO, I figured that was a factor.

My plans are to install the factory Heavy Duty option, though not original to my build (according to the Marti Report) with the 55 amp optional alternator, a 24F battery and a heat shield.

"More Power" has it's perks.

What if the heavy duty battery upgrade was triggered by the A/C option ? I don't know this for 100% for certain but suspect it is. If that is the case then the Marti report may not consequently call that out upgraded battery separately. I have seen that kind of occurrence before on other Marti reports but not on everyone.   I don't know why the HD battery is called out on some A/C Marti reports and not on another . Just reporting observations.  I suppose that a factory AC car with a 22F battery could be some kind of anomaly. I have not come across one before. Although I have studied the 67 AC cars and their differences extensively every chance I get I have not remotely seen them all.  I think "upgrading" to the HD option on a factory 67 AC car is a safe bet. Just my opinion.

[67gta289]

What if the heavy duty battery upgrade was triggered by the A/C option ? I don't know this for 100% for certain but suspect it is. If that is the case then the Marti report may not consequently call that out upgraded battery separately. I have seen that kind of occurrence before on other Marti reports but not on everyone.   I don't know why the HD battery is called out on some A/C Marti reports and not on another . Just reporting observations.  I suppose that a factory AC car with a 22F battery could be some kind of anomaly. I have not come across one before. Although I have studied the 67 AC cars and their differences extensively every chance I get I have not remotely seen them all.  I think "upgrading" to the HD option on a factory 67 AC car is a safe bet. Just my opinion.

Bob, automatic upgrades triggered from options is certainly not unheard of.  But the inconsistency in Marti reports tend to make the opposite argument in this case.  Although Ford did not do everything logically, the preponderance of design decisions was logical.  To summarize my engineering exercise, the only reason that I can think of for an automatic upgrade was that the increased power draw from the A/C version of the blower motor (which may be a wash) coupled with the increase in draw from the A/C compressor clutch would have reduced the safety margin below specification.  To do this properly, the whole vehicle configuration needs to be taken into account.  For example, a GT (which adds fog lamp bulb load) plus power convertible top plus A/C might have triggered it.   This item will be tricky to figure out for sure.

[preaction]

This is from a 67 390 auto car with A/C it shows the 55amp alternator and a 45amp battery is the 45amp battery a HD part ?