Topic: What makes a 289 non repairable?

[don.piotrek]

This week the mechanic called me saying that in the best case scenario the engine will be suitable for a coffee table. Initially, he measured the compression on the engine. It was ok on 7 cylinders (ca. 11-12) and one very poor scored only 8. After redoing the test with more oil, it rose to 11.
They opened the engine to find:
- lots of oil everywhere, also under the intake mainfold
- gluey oil in the oil pan
- a different piston in one of the cylinders (the one with weak compression) 
- different bolts on one connecting rod (with the piston above)

The mechanic is doing further investigation on the cylinder heads and engine block to see if it is in condition good enough for honing.
And if not - what are my options? What would be better/ easier to do - rebuild the engine or get another one?

Attached please find some pics of the engine and gearbox after cleaning and before disassembly, and pic of the inside of the oil pan and the cylinder head.

The car is a Dec 1st, 1967 Dearborn-built C-code coupe. Non-thermactor car with C4. Standard 2bbl carburetor.

[67gtasanjose]

The replaced piston cylinder should be inspected first. I assume you are saying the rest of the cylinders are standard bore. If the cylinder with the new piston is also standard bore, and is not too excessively worn you should be good to bore out the cylinders to up to .030"

Beyond .030 would require sleeving. Since there are many of these engines available out there, it may not be that difficult to locate a date correct replacement but I would first make sure the block is not rebuildable before moving on.

[ruppstang]

I would only go with sleeves if it is a numbers matching motor. As said above these engines are not hard to find. Nothing in the pictures looks out of the ordinary for a old engine to me.

[RoyceP]

Sleeving the block is not an issue for a competent machinist. It does not hurt the integrity of the block so long as there are no adjacent sleeves and the work is done properly.

If there are adjacent sleeves needed I would seek another block. I have had 289 engines bored as much as .060" oversize and never had any issues. Chances are that you don't need any sleeves.

If the block is cracked in any of the main bearing journals then it is junk. Same if it has any cracks in the water jackets.

I would seek out a different mechanic. There's nothing that you have in your photos or description that would lead any competent mechanic to suggest that the engine is not rebuildable.

[jwc66k]

- and is not too excessively worn you should be good to bore out the cylinders to up to .030"

Start with 0.020 inch overbore first.

Beyond .030 would require sleeving.

Not always.

I have had 289 engines bored as much as .060" oversize and never had any issues.

That's pushing it, and it's not absolute. I had a block with a casting flaw in number 8 cylinder that got sleeved at 0.020. The machinist I've used told me that he was limited in piston sizes for over boring with 0.020, 0.030, 0.060 readily available. 
Jim

[Bossbill]

It's a lot more work to tear apart an engine and rebuild it than to replace it with a long block. I think he's leading you toward the later as he either doesn't posses the skills to rebuild it, doesn't have a machinist nearby to do it or is time crunched. Or just lazy.

As for sleeves, if your machinist is pounding them in with a 2x4 then look elsewhere. That's old tech and low tolerance. There are many high performance applications that use sleeves as a performance enhancement (think overall rigidity).

[J_Speegle]

Can't see anything wrong with the suggestions so far. Over boring is a comfort thing for some

Current condition (compression) is IMHO not a factor at this point since they have opened the engine and didn't find any big issue as far as I can tell.

Is there a VIN on the block?  If so then I would make efforts to try and use the current block and simply have it rebuilt. Sure the shop, not being one that normally deals with restorers, looks at the block as just another one and might even suggest getting a short block already done by one of the mass producers to save them the hassle and you a couple of bucks.

Another option some owners choose is to rebuild a second short block and oil and store the block to keep it with the car. This takes up storage space and can be a hassle but its a choice.  As stated, have the shop measure the tapper, check the block for cracks and get an educated starting point to base your choices going forward on. It will cost a few dollars but should give you a place to start from.

[KevinK]

Pretty much as everyone has said. The mechanic installs or removes the engine. It takes an engine shop or machinist to evaluate if the engine can be rebuilt. Only then will you have the real costs associated with the potential repairs needed for a rebuild.

[1967 eight barrel]

I would find a mechanic instead of a "parts changer". He can't assess the condition of the block by an external inspection. There are no bearing shells on the bottom of the pan, no connecting rods hanging from the side of the block. It looks well used and in need of a complete overhaul. Pistons for the 289 or 302 are plentiful. Custom pistons are easily obtained and relatively inexpensive.  .030, .040 and .060 are readily available.  Take it to someone besides the two monkeys from the AAMCO commercial. If not, small blocks are everywhere.
Be thankful you're not dealing with an FE powered vehicle like many of us.

                                                                                                              -Keith

[70cj428]

I'm guessing you got your answer already, but since I do a lot of this stuff, I figure I'll add my 2 cents. The amount of permissible overbore an engine can tolerate depends on the initial wall thickness, the amount of core shift, and the intended usage of the engine. A 289 2V in a restored 66 vert might live a long and happy life bored 0.060 over with 0.090 minimum wall thickness but a stroked 408 Cleveland that sees 7000 rpm at the track will split a 0.090 wall in short order.   In order to assess any engine as a candidate for rebuilding, you need to tear it down, clean it, measure it, and mag it. If everything looks ok so far, then have the cylinder walls sonic checked. Then you can make an intelligent decision on how to proceed depending on the condition and rarity of the block. Most people would find another block if their 302 2V block was already 0.030 over and worn but a 427 side oiler block may warrant 8 sleeves if it's the original block in your 427 Fairlane ......

As for sleeves, Your best bet is to find a good competent machinist and get their opinion, as a poorly installed sleeve can make it a lot harder and more expensive to repair a block. ( I have a pretty rare XE Cleveland block that's been shelved because a shop installed 2 sleeves incorrectly, not only did I pay a lot to have it sleeved it the first place, it's gonna cost another 1K to get straightened out ....)  I know of several 428CJ blocks that lived a long hard life in an NHRA super stocker with 8 sleeves correctly installed.


JMHO, John

[1967 eight barrel]

Yes, and 427 blocks.  Most 428s tend to be inherently thin anyway.  Most are good to about .040.  However, his mechanic gave him information without a complete tear down.
Unless the block is ventilated there is no way of knowing if the engine is salvageable.  I agree with you, too many with core shift. I just went though this with 176 mile 428.
Sonic EVERY block you plan on using.  You need to know the variables before investing time and money.  Small blocks are generally still a dime a dozen in comparison with those of us with FE powered vehicles.

                                                                                                               -Keith

[Coralsnake]

Sounds like you need the services of a good machinist, not a mechanic

[don.piotrek]

Sounds like you need the services of a good machinist, not a mechanic

Thanks for the replies. I am now leaning towards what most of you said - the mechanic is either not capable or too lazy to do the full engine overhaul. On the other hand I found them quite well specialized in the classic US cars, they are well known in my area. Also they are doing good with the maintenance to a 390 big block in my '64 tbird.

How about the costs? What do you estimate for this type of engine overhaul? Would you expect some 3-4.000 USD including all the parts and labor?

[RoyceP]

I expect that you would have to pay more than that if you don't do any of the work yourself.

If I was going to overhaul a 289 I would take it apart, inspect everything myself visually, then have the crank, rods and block magnuflux inspected. Typically they all will have been rebuilt at least once previously, so the bore is likely already .030" or .040" oversize. Once I have determined the existing bore size I would decide if I needed or wanted the block to be sonic checked. This is something that requires skill and experience. It is typically not needed for a 289 that is going to .040" or less, and as I said before, I have bored several to .060" without doing it. Very seldom is a block not rebuildable, but it happens. Crank bearings can be bought as much as .060" undersize but you are more likely to find it will clean up at .030" or less.

To cut to the chase, I would have the boring and cleaning and cam bearing installation done by the machine shop. I would let the machine shop resize the rods, check them for straightness, replace the rod bolts with new ones from ARP and install the pistons on the rods.

Cylinder heads, unless you are after numbers matching correctness, I would just buy a new set from Edelbrock and paint them blue. You can easily spend $1500 having the originals rebuilt. They typically need new seats, guides, valves, and all hardware.

Everything related to the camshaft needs to be new. Lifters, rocker arms, pushrods - all of it. Rebuild the water pump and carburetor and fuel pump. The starter and alternator too.

If I do all the assembly work and rebuild all the accessories myself it can cost me $3000 - $4000 to do a 289 or 302 properly. It's just about the same cost to buy an overhauled 302 crate motor.

 

Thanks for the replies. I am now leaning towards what most of you said - the mechanic is either not capable or too lazy to do the full engine overhaul. On the other hand I found them quite well specialized in the classic US cars, they are well known in my area. Also they are doing good with the maintenance to a 390 big block in my '64 tbird.

How about the costs? What do you estimate for this type of engine overhaul? Would you expect some 3-4.000 USD including all the parts and labor?