Topic: Dilemma: Wrong Starter or will this pass Concours?

[evantugby]

Gents,
As you know I'm undergoing a restoration on my kar and I am trying to get many of the concours-details right.  I noticed the starter on my 1966 kar had a casted number of D2AF-11131-CA with a 3A below it and a Ford logo.  I knew this must have been roughly a 1972 starter, therefore not original. 

I noticed an ebay seller, BnRparts out of Van Nuys, CA rebuilt starters and were advertising one for my kar.  I sent an employee pictures of my starter and he immediately recognized it was not correct for my kar and said he can ship me the correct 1966 HiPo starter for a manual transmission.  A few days later the rebuilt starter shows up and it appears to be the SAME EXACT starter I have.  Take a look at the pictures. The rebuilt starter is on the right in all the photos and my old one is on the left.   

Starter on Left:    The one on the left is my old one, casted on the nose is D2AF-11131-CA with a 3A below it and Ford logo.  ‎On the body is stamped Motorcraft 12v USA with D50F-11001-AA4G2B.

Starter on Right:  The new rebuilt one has ca‎sted on the nose D2AF-11131-D and I can't make out any of the rest. The company ink stamped it on the side with C2OZ-11002-B (shouldn't it be a C2OF stamp?) but I was expecting to receive a rebuilt one with the C3OF casting number on the nose.  Two visual difference:  1) the area I point at appears to be a bit longer, although each starter is overal the same length.  2) the absence of the Motorcraft stamping on the housing is missing from the rebuilt starter.   

Can I get information on these starters from you and your thoughts on if these would visually pass as concours correct?  If not, what details do i need to change?  Also, is it hard to find a correct C3OF casted number on the nose?  I can't find anyone selling anywhere. 

[carlite65]

you need to find a case with the correct casting numbers period. then install the rebuilt units guts into that. not hard to do at all.

[edwardgt350]

pm me. i have what you need.

[67350#1242]

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/classic-tech/285064-anyone-familiar-1960s-starter-specs.html

Here is a link to good discussion about the starters.   The 2 starters in your post are different; the left one is a "long nose" version and will fit the 157/160 tooth flywheel on BOTH manual and automatic.   Starter on the right is "short nose" style for 164 tooth flywheel - you need to send this one back to where you purchased and do not try to use it.  It will chew up your flywheel as the offset and depth of the bendix are wrong for your car.

There is a long standing misinformation among vendors about manual vs auto starters - many think the short nose is for manual transmission - apparently  the company you purchased this one from is also misinformed.

Its all about the flywheel tooth count - nothing to do with manual/auto transmission. Don't know why this myth keeps being perpetrated.

Look for long nose starter - many if not all will list this as the automatic starter (incorrectly)

Kurt

[Bob Gaines]

The starter with the wide band has a shorter nose for the 4 speed flywheel. The starter with the narrow band has a longer nose to engage the automatic flex plate . The narrow band style can work in both but not optimally . The nose on ether of your starters are 1970's style with extra stifing gussets on the nose and extra ribs on the bands. It is easy to identify as a replacement.  Check out the comparison picture i posted on the SAAC forum . http://www.saacforum.com/index.php?topic=965.msg8795#msg8795

[evantugby]

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/classic-tech/285064-anyone-familiar-1960s-starter-specs.html

Here is a link to good discussion about the starters.   The 2 starters in your post are different; the left one is a "long nose" version and will fit the 157/160 tooth flywheel on BOTH manual and automatic.   Starter on the right is "short nose" style for 164 tooth flywheel - you need to send this one back to where you purchased and do not try to use it.  It will chew up your flywheel as the offset and depth of the bendix are wrong for your car.

There is a long standing misinformation among vendors about manual vs auto starters - many think the short nose is for manual transmission - apparently  the company you purchased this one from is also misinformed.

Its all about the flywheel tooth count - nothing to do with manual/auto transmission. Don't know why this myth keeps being perpetrated.

Look for long nose starter - many if not all will list this as the automatic starter (incorrectly)

Kurt

Kurt,
Great information.  My old starter (the long nose on the left) ran just fine.  My flywheel is 160 tooth count so what you are saying makes sense.  I will be sending this starter back for a refund.  So thankful I posted the question and someone identified a serious problem.  The last thing I want is a chainsaw noise coming from my kar on its first start after restoration.  I am shocked that a company that sells starters as a business can be so backwards in their information.  The company wasn't born last night so how they haven't correct this misinformation is bizarre. 

I still need to find someone with the correct starter C3OF.  Hopefully Edward has what I need. 

[Bob Gaines]

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/classic-tech/285064-anyone-familiar-1960s-starter-specs.html

Here is a link to good discussion about the starters.   The 2 starters in your post are different; the left one is a "long nose" version and will fit the 157/160 tooth flywheel on BOTH manual and automatic.   Starter on the right is "short nose" style for 164 tooth flywheel - you need to send this one back to where you purchased and do not try to use it.  It will chew up your flywheel as the offset and depth of the bendix are wrong for your car.

There is a long standing misinformation among vendors about manual vs auto starters - many think the short nose is for manual transmission - apparently  the company you purchased this one from is also misinformed.

Its all about the flywheel tooth count - nothing to do with manual/auto transmission. Don't know why this myth keeps being perpetrated.

Look for long nose starter - many if not all will list this as the automatic starter (incorrectly)

Kurt

Kurt, I have to disagree . I believe you are the one that is mis informed. Tooth count has to do with the diameter . Diameter has nothing to do with how far the Bendix inserts the gear into the teeth as in long nose and short nose.  How far the Bendix inserts the gear has to do with the relationship between the flywheel or flexplate has to the back of the starter mounting surface. The flexplate gears are off set different then flywheel gears. The 157 /160 tooth use the same bellhousing because the flywheel /flexplate diameter is that close . The 164 tooth flywheel or flexplate (1968 up)has to use a different bellhousing because they are too large a diameter for the starter to index the gears into the teeth properly compared to the 157/160 tooth flywheel /flexplate. The bellhousing has to be changed . The starter is moved out ward to compensate for the larger flywheel . The long nose short nose has to do with the different in and out positions of gear teeth between the flywheel and flexplate not the outward movement that the different bellhousing/larger 164 tooth brings to the equation. The starters will work in ether bellhousings regardless of which tooth count depending on application. The bellhousing has to be proper for the flywheel/flex  plate because of the different tooth count.

[sgl66]

Do both of those starters fit into to the block plate? I have an old D0xx nose that came off a rebuilt starter and the casting is maybe 1/8” wider diameter than the hole in the block plate.

[67350#1242]

Bob, you are totally right about  depth of ring gear having to match up with the length of the starter nose. Also you are right that the bellhousing and block plate differ with the 164 tooth ring gear (wider) and the components must match for everything to work.  My post was to point out that there remains a fair amount of confusion regarding shortnose longnose manual and automatic starters on the SBF's, even among vendors.

The best way to decide which you need is to measure the distance from block plate surface to the ring gear.  3/4"  requires long nose (automatic) starter.   3/8" requires short nose.

Research I've done indicates the only application for a short nose starter is with 164 tooth manual transmission.

Years ago I went down to the auto supply store and ordered a starter for my manual transmission small block - bolted it up - worked fine for a day or so then chewed up my ring gear - (totally stock 67 V8 small block).  Turns out both manual and auto with the 157 tooth ring gear need the long nose ("automatic") starter.  I wanted to prevent someone else having the same experience with my post.  An internet search will uncover many examples of others having same experience.

sglbbs :  you are right the shorter nose starter is slightly wider in the casting that protrudes through the block plate but I think it can actually be forced through the smaller opening inadvertently.
Kurt.

[Bob Gaines]

Bob, you are totally right about  depth of ring gear having to match up with the length of the starter nose. Also you are right that the bellhousing and block plate differ with the 164 tooth ring gear (wider) and the components must match for everything to work.  My post was to point out that there remains a fair amount of confusion regarding shortnose longnose manual and automatic starters on the SBF's, even among vendors.

The best way to decide which you need is to measure the distance from block plate surface to the ring gear.  3/4"  requires long nose (automatic) starter.   3/8" requires short nose.

Research I've done indicates the only application for a short nose starter is with 164 tooth manual transmission.

Years ago I went down to the auto supply store and ordered a starter for my manual transmission small block - bolted it up - worked fine for a day or so then chewed up my ring gear - (totally stock 67 V8 small block).  Turns out both manual and auto with the 157 tooth ring gear need the long nose ("automatic") starter.  I wanted to prevent someone else having the same experience with my post.  An internet search will uncover many examples of others having same experience.

sglbbs :  you are right the shorter nose starter is slightly wider in the casting that protrudes through the block plate but I think it can actually be forced through the smaller opening inadvertently.
Kurt.

The 157 tooth was not used on 65-67  289 hipos. You of course are welcome to your opinion. This information regarding auto vs manual is fairly common knowledge among Professional Starter Rebuilder shops. This was brought up to me by such a local professional and Ford enthusiast. 

[J_Speegle]

Paint jobs, as mentioned in many other threads is not like original

Starter on Right:  The new rebuilt one has ca‎sted on the nose D2AF-11131-D and I can't make out any of the rest. The company ink stamped it on the side with C2OZ-11002-B (shouldn't it be a C2OF stamp?)

Ink stamp is incorrect in many ways so not even worried about the incorrect engineering number applied. Check the other threads where the style and other details we discussed

you need to find a case with the correct casting numbers period. then install the rebuilt units guts into that. not hard to do at all.

Noses are different also. Take notice of the ribbing on the side and compare that to originals.  Its another clue that its not original for the application

[evantugby]

Gents,
This whole starter discussion is very confusing.  I just returned the starter I purchased (short nose "manual" D2AF-11131-D).  Now I need a concours correct starter.  Can someone point out what kind of starter I do need for my 1966 289 HiPo, 4-speed with a 160 tooth flywheel and whether it's a long nose or a short nose?  I'm guessing I need the long nose because that's what my kar was currently using (D2AF-11131-CA) just fine.  I recently found someone with a C3OF-11131-A nose that I will have rebuilt if it's the right one for my kar.  The guy is telling me it's a long nose. But this whole long nose short nose and labeling them manual but it's really an automatic is confusing.  Is the one in the picture for my application?     

[Bob Gaines]

Gents,
This whole starter discussion is very confusing.  I just returned the starter I purchased (short nose "manual" D2AF-11131-D).  Now I need a concours correct starter.  Can someone point out what kind of starter I do need for my 1966 289 HiPo, 4-speed with a 160 tooth flywheel and whether it's a long nose or a short nose?  I'm guessing I need the long nose because that's what my kar was currently using (D2AF-11131-CA) just fine.  I recently found someone with a C3OF-11131-A nose that I will have rebuilt if it's the right one for my kar.  The guy is telling me it's a long nose. But this whole long nose short nose and labeling them manual but it's really an automatic is confusing.  Is the one in the picture for my application?     

I can only assume you have read all of the posts in this thread. So you can understand that I am a little puzzled because reply #4 explains the difference and answers your current questions in a straight forward way. A link to another thread on the exact same subject that includes pictures is also included. I am not sure what more to add to the subject. If you do not think the information is valid that is your choice . You can't say I didn't try.   

[evantugby]

I can only assume you have read all of the posts in this thread. So you can understand that I am a little puzzled because reply #4 explains the difference and answers your current questions in a straight forward way. A link to another thread on the exact same subject that includes pictures is also included. I am not sure what more to add to the subject. If you do not think the information is valid that is your choice . You can't say I didn't try.

Bob,
Give me a break.  Your post was talking about wide bands and narrow bands and stifing gussets and ribs.  Post #4 was a great post for feedback but I wouldn't call it straight forward, it's convoluted.  Luckily he reached out to me privately to help so I know he cares about me getting it right.  Also, you have an entire company supposedly selling wrong starters to guys based on it being manual vs automatic and then others chiming in saying long nose and short nose when I see no real difference in size.  Both the starters look exactly the same size to me in terms of overall length.  You are also talking to a guy that is essentially a newbie compared to some of you old timers.  I'm still trying to figure out why a company that rebuilds starters sold me supposedly the wrong starter for my kar because I need a long nose "automatic" even though I have a 4-speed manual.  What a nightmare!

[evantugby]

Info on this subject.

65Autolite,
Thanks for this.  Let me digest it and see if this will make sense to me.  I'm a visual learner so this may help.   

My bellhousing is a C5DA-6394-A so that would mean I need Set #1.  This means I need to ask any starter supplier business for an "automatic" starter even though I have a manual transmission.  It's unbelievable how this can be so convoluted.   

Sometimes this site can be frustrating when some people like to talk to others like everyone is on the same intellectual level as they are and expect their explanation to make sense.  It reminds me of a very smart professor I had in college undergrad math class...she was so advance beyond her students that she could not effectively teach to undergraduate students, thus a very poor instructor, as mathematically gifted as she was.