Topic: Autolite 4100 Restorations

[TLea]

 Who are people using for Autolite  4100 Restorations?  This would be concours Restoration not just rebuild. Thanks

[rodster]

Email sent.

I used this guy and he seemed very knowledgeable.

Best to talk to him first.

[evantugby]

My brother rebuilds these carburetors too.  He rebuilt mine.  He is a certified automotive/diesel mechanic and also does restoration/fabrication etc...  Very knowledgeable.  20+ years of experience.  He built my engine too. 

Charges $200 and he will buy the carb rebuild kit for you (ethanol resistant parts).  What he doesn't do is the "Dichromate" finish.  But I prefer my 52 year old carb to have some patina on it.   

Here is his contact info: 
Jason T
cell:  208 - nine nine nine - 00 two four

He lives in Boise Idaho. 

Give him a call.

[Dan Case]

Rebuild, remanufacture, and even the common usage of the word "restoration" processes will not return a Ford 2100/4100 family carburetor back to a close approximation how it would have looked as Ford bolted them to new engines.  New 2100/4100 carburetors had parts using many different finishes.

I will state up front that most of my research involves the Ford 4100 used in new Cobras 1962-64 and 428 PI equipped 427 Cobras in the CSX32xx chassis range. While concentrating on O.E.M. Ford carburetors for those vehicles I crossed paths with many models 2V and 4V. The carburetors I found interesting are ones that were new car take offs (I have a few and have pictures of others.) and genuine made in the production runs new old stock carburetors (I have a few.)  I found it interesting that a 2V and 4V carburetor assembled in the same time frame had the same finishes and color codes for any part or assembly technique they shared.  Carburetors of the same engineering numbers assembled later not only did not have the same finishes and color codes but often not the same small parts. Said another way a 1962 engineering assembly put together in 1965 used some parts like a 1965 made carburetor would have.

To "restore" every 2100 or 4100 covering years of production with the same small parts as applicable and same finishes would historically be a mistake.  In the 1980s there was a man that expended a lot of effort to return popular 4100 models for Mustangs to as close to a day one appearance as he could. I thought he did very well, especially with the two big die cast aluminum parts. Unfortunately his services cost so much, on the order of $800 in 1980s dollars, he did not do many before ending such difficult restorations. I spent some time with him one day and he was glad to be appreciated but he would not tell me how he deep cleaned the aluminum die castings such that the looked very much like new made instead of restored. The platings I did not need coaching on because I have by that time already dismantled a rare carburetor into collections of different substrates and finishes, hunted refinishers, and sent the parts off to get day one type finishes. It was a lot of trouble and involved several refinishers in multiple states. The finished carburetor sure looked like a new old stock one but I decided right then I did not want to go through that again.

As an example of how many different "appearances" there were I created this general list this morning based on a couple new car take off C4OF-9510-AL carburetors.

Aluminum die castings exactly as molded except for secondary machining operations.  (Once damaged chemically or mechanically as cast surfaces will never look just like day one again.)

Brass machined and or wrought with no add on finish. (Once damaged chemically or mechanically as manufactured surfaces will almost never look just like day one again without lots of fine detail work.)

Dye: Dye daub or dip in black dye on just a small section of a part.

Dye: Steel stamped zinc plated then dipped, complete part coverage, in black dye.

Dye: Steel wrought protected with bright zinc plated and then lightly coated with pink dye.

Grease pencil mark, light blue color.

Grease pencil marks, black color.

Grease pencil marks, scarlet red type color.

Nylon? type thermoplastic natural (no colorant added - common reproductions are pigmented "white").

Paint daubs in a vermillion type color.

Paint daubs in a safety yellow type color.

Steel stamped protected by completely leached clear dichromate.

Steel wrought and machined protected leached clear zinc / zinc dichromate (most of the time a noticeable amount of iridescence).

Steel wrought and machined protected leached clear zinc / zinc dichromate with various depths of "color" depending on part.

Steel wrought and stamped protected by leached clear zinc / zinc dichromate (just a hint of iridescence).

Steel wrought and stamped protected with zinc plating zinc dichromated iridescent yellow conversion coating. (Common modern restored parts are usually deeper in color than original finishes.)

Steel wrought and stamped steel plated in bright zinc (no yellow, no gold, and no iridescence).

Steel wrought protected by gray phosphate and oil.

Zinc die castings protected with bright yellow (no iridescence) zinc chromate.

[CharlesTurner]

Great post, thanks for sharing.  I've also found varying finishes/plating on all the bits and pieces.  Quite different than what some of the 'concours' restoration services, where they usually just do everything in zinc w/dichromate.  I prefer to restore carburetors myself these days as I have not been able to get consistent nor correct finishes on the parts.  I've had shops ruin the carb body by blasting them with coarse/abrasive media.

Paying to have a small batch of zinc and zinc w/dichromate isn't terribly expensive.  I'd rather pay the extra to make sure it's all like it should be.

[Dan Case]

Great post, thanks for sharing.  I've also found varying finishes/plating on all the bits and pieces.  Quite different than what some of the 'concours' restoration services, where they usually just do everything in zinc w/dichromate.  I prefer to restore carburetors myself these days as I have not been able to get consistent nor correct finishes on the parts.  I've had shops ruin the carb body by blasting them with coarse/abrasive media.

Paying to have a small batch of zinc and zinc w/dichromate isn't terribly expensive.  I'd rather pay the extra to make sure it's all like it should be.

You are welcome. The tough pieces are the two large aluminum die castings. If they are damaged it is a waste of time for me to mess with them on my behalf. Everything else can be dealt with one way or another. 

I have helped Cobra owners come up with correct functional carburetors for their cars. I do not restore them but I help find great cores and fix any issues they have, most often missing or incorrect parts but sometimes damaged or modified parts.  It takes me on average three (3) carburetors and a few parts purchased loose from a given time frame to come up with 100% of the parts one (1) would have had originally.  On one commercially "restored" assembly that a Cobra owner had already purchased every screw and washer in the assembly was something brand new that just looked sort of like what Ford used. I bought a fantastic condition common Galaxie model made the same month and rendered all the way down to the little press in core plugs to UN-restore the "restored" carburetor the best I could.

I also come across, in commercially restored units, modified or incorrect calibrated parts (jets and auxiliary booster clusters) in high performance models of carburetors, rare parts of rare assemblies. Some auxiliary booster clusters are really hard to find as loose parts.

Carburetor wise I concentrate on Cobras and a lesser degree 427 Cobras so I can discuss what I know about the Ford and Holley brand carburetors used in Cobras with XHP-260, HP260, HP289, 1965 427 8V (CSX31xx 427 Cobras) and 428 PI (CSX32xx 427 Cobras) engines. I do not know much about the carburetors for XHP-260 as they seem to be engineering prototypes (Ford and Holley) and I have yet to find one to examine. I have a sample of the carburetors Ford installed on HP260s. The C3OF-AJ and C4OF-AL models I know well.  I know some about the ultra rare C4OF-AT model that just thirteen Cobras used. I am very familiar with the Holley R-3259/R-3259-1s, only three new Cobras finished in 1965 used them, because so many have ended up on Cobras as post production accessories.   I am familiar with the R-3259 Prototypes made during the fall of 1964 and the 2-4V carburetors of 1967 GT500s (Perhaps the best designed "factory" 2-4V system ever. Tuned well the 1967 GT500 is a marvelous driver and performer. )

[rodster]

Wow, very interesting and what a wealth of knowledge!

I don't know if you are one to document your findings but if you would, it would be a wonderful piece of reference material.  Bob Mannel's Small Block Ford book comes to mind. 

Do you have a any pictures of some of those unique carburetors?

[Dan Case]

Wow, very interesting and what a wealth of knowledge!

I don't know if you are one to document your findings but if you would, it would be a wonderful piece of reference material.  Bob Mannel's Small Block Ford book comes to mind. 

Do you have a any pictures of some of those unique carburetors?

Circa 2002 I noticed that the same questions arose over and over so I started recording everything in some manner. Cobra/ 427 Cobra wise I have something like 15,000 pictures of details of unrestored cars, dozens of commentaries on many subjects, dozens of reverse engineered part drawings, photo copies of many SAI race shop drawings, and hundreds of holotype parts saved as samples. Most parts are just as removed, carefully labeled inventoried, and stored.  About half the used parts I know what Cobra or 427 Cobra they came from. And many new old stock parts saved as holotypes, especially to capture paints and platings as they were. I also collect some reproduction small parts and who made them when to show in comparisons with used or nos originals.

The two most detailed oriented restorers have come to visit to see specific original parts and materials to guide their Pebble Beach bound work. I also send out commentaries or spreadsheets on more complicated subjects to owners, restorers, and a few people that get called to judge Cobras at shows.  Right now my "file space" is 34.1 GB, with 19,863 files in 1,063 folders. 

Yes, I have pictures of some of the new car take offs and rarer carburetors. Most images are stored as 3 MB or larger files so sending groups of files or even reducing and posting them is a lot of trouble.  One single broad Cobra subject slide show is 72.9 MB in size. My current revision of engine notes installed in new Cobras just bumped into page 78. You could say my notes would be footnotes to Bob's book if he covered new Cobras.

Typical new old stock production 2100/4100 from one time frame.

[rodster]

Circa 2002 I noticed that the same questions arose over and over so I started recording everything in some manner. Cobra/ 427 Cobra wise I have something like 15,000 pictures of details of unrestored cars, dozens of commentaries on many subjects, dozens of reverse engineered part drawings, photo copies of many SAI race shop drawings, and hundreds of holotype parts saved as samples. Most parts are just as removed, carefully labeled inventoried, and stored.  About half the used parts I know what Cobra or 427 Cobra they came from. And many new old stock parts saved as holotypes, especially to capture paints and platings as they were. I also collect some reproduction small parts and who made them when to show in comparisons with used or nos originals.

The two most detailed oriented restorers have come to visit to see specific original parts and materials to guide their Pebble Beach bound work. I also send out commentaries or spreadsheets on more complicated subjects to owners, restorers, and a few people that get called to judge Cobras at shows.  Right now my “file space” is 34.1 GB, with 19,863 files in 1,063 folders. 

Yes, I have pictures of some of the new car take offs and rarer carburetors. Most images are stored as 3 MB or larger files so sending groups of files or even reducing and posting them is a lot of trouble.  One single broad Cobra subject slide show is 72.9 MB in size. My current revision of engine notes installed in new Cobras just bumped into page 78. You could say my notes would be footnotes to Bob's book if he covered new Cobras.

Typical new old stock production 2100/4100 from one time frame.

WOW....     Impressed doesn't even begin to describe my thoughts about your effort, dedication and attention to detail.  Amazing....no... more than amazing.

Thanks for sharing some of your insight.

[Dan Case]

You are welcome.

[sgl66]

Dan, not sure if you’ve seen this approach to cleaning the aluminum body. It’s common with motorcycle carbs but this video shows someone using a 50/50 mix of pinesol & water on a 4100. I have tried this on various cast parts and the results were very good with no perceptible change to the original finish.

[J_Speegle]

Dan another picture and confirmation from what was reported to be a low mileage take off from a 66. We have what appears to be a match with the blue mark one or more workers were applying to the same location.

[Dan Case]

Dan, not sure if you’ve seen this approach to cleaning the aluminum body. It’s common with motorcycle carbs but this video shows someone using a 50/50 mix of pinesol & water on a 4100. I have tried this on various cast parts and the results were very good with no perceptible change to the original finish.

Thanks, I will have to test that method.

For unrestored applications I have been somewhat successful in improving appearance without make big surface texture changes. This was a carburetor for a 427 Cobra that has been stored poorly for nearly four decades.

[Dan Case]

Dan another picture and confirmation from what was reported to be a low mileage take off from a 66. We have what appears to be a match with the blue mark one or more workers were applying to the same location.

Neat, probably meant the same thing in the assembly and or inspection process.

[Dan Case]

I tried Pinesol(R) based water solutions and didn't get real far. I bought some commercial carbon remover for engine pistons and that didn't do much either.

What works best for me is soaking in WD40(R) lubricant for days to weeks, gentle well used walnut shell media 'blasting' [[[MY CABINET HAS NEVER HAD ANY MEDIA BUT WALNUT SHELL IN IT.]], and a rinse in lacquer thinner. Brass parts get dipped in tarnish remover I get at a grocery store.  Soft metal (lead and soft aluminum) plugs must be protected during media 'blasting'. I use two or three layers of very heavy aluminum foil tape cut into little discs to protect the soft metal plugs. Old jets filled solid, aluminum foil tape in layers, junk clusters, junk mixture needle valves, junk screws, and a junk power valve help keep walnut shell out of places it does not need to be. I cleaned the accelerator pump drive lever with a tooth brush to preserve the original black dip dye the best I could. Super fine steel wool and oil brings the sheen back to the inlets of auxiliary venturi. The assembly tag was gently cleaned with a large eraser's flat sides and WD40 working in the direction the strip was originally made in. Cover screw heads were brightened up with a daub of soft metal polish on cotton and just enough work to bring the bright zinc appearance back.

In the picture below the air cleaner stud is a new one supplied by the owner as the old one had several threads stripped. All other metal surfaces were just carefully cleaned. Cleaning removed factory paint color codes and assembly line grease pencil marks, which I endeavored to recreate accurately.

One thing that helped make this one easy was it was thoroughly covered in old red fuel varnish stains. The crud actually provided corrosion protection.




This job was not really a restoration to me but a careful service with preservation in mind.  It goes to a late Cobra with factory automatic transmission.