Topic: 4 speed transmission used in K codes

[livetoride60]

Is there a place to look up top loader serial numbers to get the date range, or would someone mind looking up the date for 014146?

[J_Speegle]

Is there a place to look up top loader serial numbers to get the date range, or would someone mind looking up the date for 014146?

No "list" that I'm aware of is available on line.

Believe its possible that each top loader version (HEH T) had their own serial number so collecting data will be difficult.
For comparison I have examples on record such a late 68 San Jose toploader with a 13588 but its on a RUG AD. Just an example

Not sure when they started or restarted the count at or from

[sgl66]

Thanks for the info.  Mine has no VIN so assuming it came out of a regular car too.   

I wouldn't make that assumption. There has been more than one reported example of HiPo cars coming through without VIN stamps on drivetrain, more often missing on transmissions. It's also been reported over the years to have happened more often in Metuchen. Ford also specifically calls out an HEH-BT for non-HiPo cars which have lower torque and horsepower ratings and would therefore benefit from a 2.78 first gear rather than a 2.32 first gear found in the HEH-T.

[livetoride60]

I wouldn't make that assumption. There has been more than one reported example of HiPo cars coming through without VIN stamps on drivetrain, more often missing on transmissions. It's also been reported over the years to have happened more often in Metuchen. Ford also specifically calls out an HEH-BT for non-HiPo cars which have lower torque and horsepower ratings and would therefore benefit from a 2.78 first gear rather than a 2.32 first gear found in the HEH-T.

Thanks for the info.  That's what i'm looking for.  If anyone else has info of whether the HEH-T was / was not used in regular Mustangs, or "mostly" used in one or other, that would be great.  Looking for the overall trend at a minimum. 

Also appreciate the data point on unstamped drivelines.  I'd read that before too.

[J_Speegle]

Also appreciate the data point on unstamped drivelines.  I'd read that before too.

"Unstamped" drivelines? Guess your referring to the ones made from the section of the tube where the stamp/marking  was not located.  Since those out numbered the stenciled ones, couldn't tell that if you looked at "restored" cars out there, by two to one they are found through the whole production year.

[livetoride60]

Hi Jeff - I didn't mean driveshafts, I was referring to engine and transmission.  Maybe "drivetrain" is a better word.  Was responding to sgl66's mention of examples of hipos coming off the line with unstamped engines and transmissions.  If this is the case, then it could explain my HEH-T with no VIN stamp, as well as it could have been in a regular Mustang.

[J_Speegle]

Hi Jeff - I didn't mean driveshafts, I was referring to engine and transmission.  Maybe "driveline" is a better word.  Was responding to sgl66's mention of examples of hipos coming off the line with unstamped engines and transmissions.  If this is the case, then it could explain my HEH-T with no VIN stamp, as well as it could have been in a regular Mustang.

Ok think we're on the same pager now. Maybe "drivetrain" would be a better use. As far as VIN stamping on transmissions there is documentation suggesting that ALL 4 speeds were suppose to get a VIN as it was an auto thief deterant (for performance parts/assemblies) so even one behind a C code. But there are not many reports or pictures of non K code with a A or C code VINs out there and not many looking for them.

Did start a thread looking for 67 examples (non-Shelbys) and have come up with few finds from that attempt

[sgl66]

there is documentation suggesting that ALL 4 speeds were suppose to get a VIN as it was an auto thief deterant (for performance parts/assemblies)

Was that a Ford document as part of the assembly/manufacturing process?

I know the government passed a law in 1966 which went into effect in early 1968 requiring a "public" VIN to help deter theft. This was where the VIN at the base of the windshield was born but did not specifically require stamping engines and transmissions. Link to the law in here https://www.dispatch.com/business/20200518/cars-we-remember-column-matching-numbers-fords-1968-and-beyond

I know Corvettes started stamping engines around 1960 originally just with assembly dates and identifying it as a Corvette motor which evolved to include the VIN by the mid 60's.

Vehicle theft in the mid 60's was apparently getting out of control partly due to the availability of master keys so another law was passed in the late 60's banning the distribution of master keys...interesting read https://books.google.com/books?id=jhBgR3w0FKYC&pg=PA20&focus=viewport&vq=Identification&output=html_text#c_top

Coming back to Ford, there were two motivations for adding the VIN, 1.) deter theft 2.) warranty claims. From a business perspective, it would make sense that Ford would be more concerned with warranty claims than theft deterrent. It would be more likely to blow up an engine than a top loader transmission behind a 289 which may at least help explain why the VIN is less often found on the transmission at least from what I've observed over several decades

[RoyceP]

No, it was a federal law that all 4 speed transmissions be stamped with the VIN beginning January 1964. Long before the 1968 law.


Many cases were sold over the counter that had no VIN as spare parts. I know it was a huge deal because I split the case of a top loader 4 speed around 1977. The transmission shop ran the VIN (not original to my car) on the case through the local FBI office before they would work on it. I ended up getting another case from them - with no VIN.

Was that a Ford document as part of the assembly/manufacturing process?

I know the government passed a law in 1966 which went into effect in early 1968 requiring a "public" VIN to help deter theft. This was where the VIN at the base of the windshield was born but did not specifically require stamping engines and transmissions. Link to the law in here https://www.dispatch.com/business/20200518/cars-we-remember-column-matching-numbers-fords-1968-and-beyond

I know Corvettes started stamping engines around 1960 originally just with assembly dates and identifying it as a Corvette motor which evolved to include the VIN by the mid 60's.

Vehicle theft in the mid 60's was apparently getting out of control partly due to the availability of master keys so another law was passed in the late 60's banning the distribution of master keys...interesting read https://books.google.com/books?id=jhBgR3w0FKYC&pg=PA20&focus=viewport&vq=Identification&output=html_text#c_top

Coming back to Ford, there were two motivations for adding the VIN, 1.) deter theft 2.) warranty claims. From a business perspective, it would make sense that Ford would be more concerned with warranty claims than theft deterrent. It would be more likely to blow up an engine than a top loader transmission behind a 289 which may at least help explain why the VIN is less often found on the transmission at least from what I've observed over several decades

[sgl66]

No, it was a federal law that all 4 speed transmissions be stamped with the VIN beginning January 1964. Long before the 1968 law.

Never heard that before and that spans not only Ford but also Mopar and GM vehicles. Do you have a link to the law or some reference to it?

[RoyceP]

I don't but Jeff has posted a link to it several times. It affected any car marketed for sale in the USA - domestic or foreign.

Never heard that before and that spans not only Ford but also Mopar and GM vehicles. Do you have a link to the law or some reference to it?

[K-HESS]

  I have also seen one that had the number stamped on the bottom edge of the rear tailhousing very much the same as the early Falcons and Comets were.

Just a follow up to this conversation I recently came across another hipo transmission that had the vin number stamped on the tailhousing. This one is also from Metuchen but is from a 1966.

[livetoride60]

Just a follow up to this conversation I recently came across another hipo transmission that had the vin number stamped on the tailhousing. This one is also from Metuchen but is from a 1966.

Please post in Lost and Found over in the hipo site at www.hipo-mustang.com.  It's a place owners can try to match up missing hipo engines and transmissions with cars.

Thanks,
Rich