Topic: 67 390 GT engine restoration pics

[Bob Gaines]

Think some confusion took place while reading my response. I was expounding on your comments and they seem to agree from the whole - painted non-painted description of parts that someone started long ago

Your comment - "Pic 7, A/C brackets are hard to see but they should not be painted all black. The bracket is bare cast iron ,"

Must report that I've not found that fitting installed on any of the 67 390 I have pictures of and I have over 100 of the GT500;s with the fitting your referring to.  Just reporting what I found - will find time to check a couple of other possible resources to continue the discussion   

The compressor bracket is what I perceived you were talking about that you felt was sometimes phosphate. I think typically is black. I was referring to idler pulley and fixed idler pulley as pulley black ,center silver and bracket cast iron.

[Bob Gaines]

Think some confusion took place while reading my response. I was expounding on your comments and they seem to agree from the whole - painted non-painted description of parts that someone started long ago

Your comment - "Pic 7, A/C brackets are hard to see but they should not be painted all black. The bracket is bare cast iron ,"

Must report that I've not found that fitting installed on any of the 67 390 I have pictures of and I have over 100 of the GT500;s with the fitting your referring to.  Just reporting what I found - will find time to check a couple of other possible resources to continue the discussion   

Jeff, page 8 of the Osborn copy of the Chassis assemblyline manual shows a 67 Mustang/Cougar 390 engine with A/C and has the heater hose pointing straight vertical instead of at a 45 degree angle. There is no mistaking which type of fitting is being used. The manual in this case agrees with what I have found in junk yards. The fact that the feature is illustrated on a regular Mustang /Cougar instead of a two four barrel intake appears to support that it is not meant as a 67 GT500 only feature. Maybe it is a A/C only issue (on regular BB Mustang) but certainly not a Shelby only issue from my observations.

[Daisy]

My $.02
Daisy is a 1967 DSO 72 (but from Dearborn  ) with CA-emissions Thermactor 390 w/ C6 restored by my dad and me in 1983:

My pcv valve did not have that fitting. It was a simple black hose to a metal tube connected at the front and back of the intake manifold.  With spring clamps.

The thermactor hose connecting the anti-backfire to exhaust manifold assy. lays under the sparkplug wires and all else on the passenger side of the engine - it lays just on top of the manifold.  You have it laying on top off everything.

Watch the heater hose routing - it is different on our cars (vs. all others). Yeah, not a helpful statement - just a caution

I need a picture of the forward intake manifold to ensure you have the three way (IIRC) vacuum fitting.

To confirm, yes, it is a long neck heater hose fitting on the water pump.  it is needed to properly clear the thermactor pump assy.

I will go back through your pictures to see if more jumps out.

I am amazed by your attention detail and how all your hardware looks! [big thumbs up]

[67gtasanjose]

To confirm, yes, it is a long neck heater hose fitting on the water pump. it is needed to properly clear the thermactor pump assy.

  been waiting for a confirmation by another...not so much an AC thing (as I believe Bob said) but I thought it must be solely for clearing the Thermactor pump. (mostly only saw California cars so this detail was vague, assembly manual indicated this though)

[Bob Gaines]

;)been waiting for a confirmation by another...not so much an AC thing (as I believe Bob said) but I thought it must be solely for clearing the Thermactor pump. (mostly only saw California cars so this detail was vague, assembly manual indicated this though)

I am not sure of a application on a regular Mustang but it was a handy place to get needed parts for a 67 GT500. I didn't pay much attention other then trying to scope one out on a junk yard Mustang to pick. It certainly came on some regular Mustangs because that is where I got all of my junk yard finds from.  It is not like you find Shelby's in junkyards frequently to pick parts off of . If there were I would certainly know the difference.    Keep in mind that the 2 piece vertical fitting was used regardless of if  Thermactor , A/C or no A/C on a 67 GT500.  I can't think of one thing that is different on a 67 GT500 in respect to this fitting that would be different on a regular Mustang. Can anyone else . That is why I have always assumed it was a typical 67 390 fitting wrong or not.  As far as why? I had always figured that since the 390 was new for 67 to the Mustang body Ford engineers thought that they needed extra clearance for accessories which made it necessary for the altered angle. The engineers determined that they didn't need the design and chose the other style fitting for later models. No clearance problems,less parts and easier to install was my reasoning . At least that was my logical conclusion for my theory based on what I had observed right or wrong.   I do know a reasonable explanation for a missing fitting would be the first time ,second time etc. a BB waterpump was replaced and the 2 piece fitting needed to be moved over to the replacement pump the lower "knuckle " section may have been left off and discarded given the extra trouble it was to install and orient in the proper fashion. Just a possible explanation.  I have been under the impression it was a common knowledge 67 only production item like the smaller 67 BB radiator and fan shroud that were replaced with a better engineered system. I had no reason to think any differently until others brought up varying views. I only know for certain that it was used on 67 GT500's and that at least some regular 390 mustangs given where I have always found replacements for the MANY that were replaced on the 67 Shelby's. My thinking right or wrong was that they were replaced on the regular 390 Mustangs for the same reason that they were replaced on the many 67 GT500's I and others have seen and worked on. Through attrition.  FYI the long fitting section of the two piece assembly is different in shape then the 68 + BB long fitting. you can compare from the picture I already posted.

[J_Speegle]

My $.02
Daisy is a 1967 DSO 72 (but from Dearborn  ) with CA-emissions Thermactor 390 w/ C6 restored by my dad and me in 1983:

My pcv valve did not have that fitting. It was a simple black hose to a metal tube connected at the front and back of the intake manifold.  With spring clamps.

Interesting (will keep this short so we don't get off focus have pictures of an unrestored example Dearborn, California DSO with the block just no idle compensator non-AC car

The thermactor hose connecting the anti-backfire to exhaust manifold assy. lays under the sparkplug wires and all else on the passenger side of the engine - it lays just on top of the manifold.  You have it laying on top off everything.

Think your referring to the hose from the T to the pump rather than the one that goes from the passenger side manifold to the T and the T to the back fire valve

He still got one heater hose to route under all that stuff also

[J_Speegle]

been waiting for a confirmation by another...not so much an AC thing (as I believe Bob said) but I thought it must be solely for clearing the Thermactor pump. (mostly only saw California cars so this detail was vague, assembly manual indicated this though)

OK what I found

- Interesting that the pieces we're discussing (the water pump attachment) wasn't even serviced or carried by Ford six months after production had stopped. Not even a listing (Feb 68 MPC) for anything to fit the application. Which is odd IMHO that they didn't suggest just using the 68 version if it cleared everything without the elbow.

- Big Fords were built with the straight water nipple and it didn't interfere with the Thermactor pump - though made it a little tighter fit and required that the heater hose take an passenger side route but those bigger engine compartments had allot more space than Mustangs and Cougars 

- Pictures are from all played with cars or at least the possibility. The since the elbow moves the hose and the end of the nipple away from the Thermactor pump I can't see where it is needed or provides additional space for that need. Without the elbow/adapter the end sort of heads towards the top of all the Thermactor stuff up front 

- We know well that the Thermactor and the style Bob is describing does play well with one another considering all the GT500 examples we have and for that case even with Thermactor and AC. 

- Can report back that I did check again through the pictures I have ignoring those that had been "restored" and the like and did find a couple of San Jose Thermactor cars still with the style we see on Shelby's.

In some cases there are not indexed well and now (when picture was taken) point in another direction    Which can lead to mis- identification

As can be expected many of them have been replaced over the years as they failed

Pretty early car in the 7R108xx range




Fairly late San Jose indexed way over towards the passenger side





And an example from a non-unrestored car showing the orientation of the nipple, Thermactor pump and AC brackets and such

[preaction]

Jeff, thanks for looking over the pics I appreciate it. There are no staples on the valve covers yet but the gaskets are silver. I do have the phosphate coated choke cover wrong one is on the carb. Jeff I looked many times for the orientation of the air pump special washer and it looked like it should have one end resting on a bolt flat and one end in the adjuster slot. The engine decal is on order. You mentioned the batter post nut on backwards ? The air pump adjuster arm is mounted the same as in one of your pics here. The thick washer holding the a/c metal tag was identified in the assembly manual and dementions veryifyed from AMK fastener book. I never noticed this but jeff you are right the passenger side air tube check valve doesn't say ford on it. I will waite to see where the a/c bracket goes. And the two bolts on the back of the passenger side are the trans fill tube hold down top bolt and the engine ground strap bolt and star washer in gold is the second and there is only shadow from the lighting from my dim garage. The engine currently has a petronix soon to be changed over as I have too many changes this time around to not have it start up well. Also not sure about the water pump heater hose nipple, could  Dearborn have been different ?

[Bob Gaines]

Jeff, thanks for looking over the pics I appreciate it. There are no staples on the valve covers yet but the gaskets are silver. I do have the phosphate coated choke cover wrong one is on the carb. Jeff I looked many times for the orientation of the air pump special washer and it looked like it should have one end resting on a bolt flat and one end in the adjuster slot. The engine decal is on order. You mentioned the batter post nut on backwards ? The air pump adjuster arm is mounted the same as in one of your pics here. The thick washer holding the a/c metal tag was identified in the assembly manual and dementions veryifyed from AMK fastener book. I never noticed this but jeff you are right the passenger side air tube check valve doesn't say ford on it. I will waite to see where the a/c bracket goes. And the two bolts on the back of the passenger side are the trans fill tube hold down top bolt and the engine ground strap bolt and star washer in gold is the second and there is only shadow from the lighting from my dim garage. The engine currently has a petronix soon to be changed over as I have too many changes this time around to not have it start up well. Also not sure about the water pump heater hose nipple, could  Dearborn have been different ?

FYI the 390's were all built at the Dearborn engine plant. 

[Paperback Writer]

For what it's worth...

While the radiator, heater, and bypass hoses had all been replaced at some point prior to 1983, I'm about 99% certain that the C6AE-8505B waterpump (casting date 6G1 = July 1, 1966) is the original waterpump that my car was born with, and the heater hose fitting is the straight-up, two piece version that Bob describes...

[preaction]

It appears the nipple in the above picture is different from the nipple provided by Mansfield restorations, the 45* fitting looks the same.

[Bob Gaines]

It appears the nipple in the above picture is different from the nipple provided by Mansfield restorations, the 45* fitting looks the same.

I think the Mansfield one is a copy of the one engineered to used but have seen the other style enough times in a original matrix along with the knuckle to believe it was used sporadically as well.

[J_Speegle]

.................. You mentioned the batter post nut on backwards ?

If i recall the picture you posted had the nut that has the hex end and the round (no Hex) end. I've always seen those mounted so that the round in towards the clamp end allowing better access for a rench

The thick washer holding the a/c metal tag was identified in the assembly manual and dementions veryifyed from AMK fastener book.

So you based the selection just on the assembly manual. Wonder if that is how cars were built through the year. Of course just because there was a part made (what the AMK would confirm) doesn't confirm its application for this purpose.  Are you doing the same with some of your selections such as Thermactor parts and such? Considering all the running changes and details not followed in the assembly manual by the workers and the different plants Just a concern basing choices just on the manuals

I never noticed this but jeff you are right the passenger side air tube check valve doesn't say ford on it. I will waite to see where the a/c bracket goes.

 

More the different shape than the marking but would likely confirm
As for the water pump heater hose connection (has sort of taken allot of the thread so far)
as Bob mentioned the engines were all assembled at the same plant though I can't confirm if the nipple was installed before the engine was shipped though I think its likely. I do have a Dearborn Thermactor with a straight long nipple but its from the first day or two of production so it may not reflect what was the common practice later in the production year.

[jwc66k]

So you based the selection just on the assembly manual. Wonder if that is how cars were built through the year. Of course just because there was a part made (what the AMK would confirm) doesn't confirm its application for this purpose.  Are you doing the same with some of your selections such as Thermactor parts and such? Considering all the running changes and details not followed in the assembly manual by the workers and the different plants Just a concern basing choices just on the manuals

It's a wonder that Ford could build anything in that era, poor engineering, poor planning and poor assembly line techniques not withstanding. Yes, we know the assembly manuals are Ford engineering's design concepts, and yes, we know there are deviations between assembly plants, and yes, we know that plant assembly engineers made changes to facilitate assembly. That being said, MCA judges Mustangs to a standard. If you deviate from that standard WITHOUT documentation, you will lose points. If the vehicle is judged to Thoroughbred standards, a deviation could mean the difference between an ordinary car or an extraordinary vehicle. After 50 years (plus or minus a few) of existence, it is difficult to justify what to base your choice of restoration tips, documentation that we know might have been corrected or changed, or pictures of a deviation on a car with an unknown background.
And you wonder what drives people to drink (pun intended).
Jim

[preaction]

Jeff I should have been more clear all of the bolts and hardware on this engine is what came to me with the car and have been replated and refinished. As I received it the a/c compressor was not mounted on the engine and was just parts in a box. Since it is an unusual washer (thick) and was with the car  and matched the assembly manual I used it, my goal is to assemble the best time frame and plant correct engine that I can so any help and direction is very much appreciated, Paul. Also I did not include a yellow paint mark that I found on the end of the air pump shaft is this something that has been seen before ?