Topic: '65 NJ Buck Tag: PI instead of PIO for a GT?

[drummingrocks]

We recently got an interesting '65 fastback in the shop.  The original door tag is missing, but the buck tag is installed on the passenger's side rear fender apron in the engine bay.  The car is dressed up like a GT.  I always assumed it was a clone, but it is an A-code, so I suppose it could be the real thing.

For a factory GT with a buck tag, I'm always used to seeing the GT package as "PIO" (performance image option) on the buck tag.  This car was built in Metuchen, and the tag has "PI" instead of "PIO".  Is that a factory option code?  I have no guarantee that the car has its original buck tag; this could be a reproduction that someone messed up.  Just curious.

[rocket289k]

Hi There,

I have typically seen PIO from the Metuchen plant for GT in 1965 as well.  However, the Marti Tag book indicates that PI and PIO were both used.  Do you have a photo of the tag you could post?  If it's a reproduction the inspector "punch-outs " on the tag would be missing.  I've attached an example of a buck tag with the inspector punch-outs.  In addition, I did find an example on-line of a 1965 Metuchen tag marked PI (I've attached it to this post as well).  One of the challenges with validating this particular car is the door tag is missing.  However, provided that the VIN stamping in the front fender aprons matches the buck tag and the buck tag appears to be original then that would at least open the possibility the car is a GT. 

Does the car have the other typical factory GT indicators?  In this case, since it's an "A" code, it would have come from the factory with single exhaust unless it was a factory GT.  As a result, if this car is a GT it should contain the reinforcements to the rear floor pans under the rear seats to accommodate the dual exhaust hangers.  If those floor pan reinforcements for the dual exhaust are not present, then it is not possible to be a factory GT.

Regards,

Ron

[Turnall]

My buck tag.  Oct '65 build (66 GT) for reference...

Allen

[CharlesTurner]

Both codes were used, they mean the same.

[sgl66]

If it's a reproduction the inspector "punch-outs " on the tag would be missing.

Mine is known original to the car and marked PIO with no inspector punch outs. It also looks like the example picture above held in hand is missing them as well.

There was a recent thread on here about NJ A code GT's having the 9" pinion snubber bracket welded to the floor with rubber bolted to it.

[midlife]

Most Metuchen buck tags that I've seen (mostly 1966's) were on the driver's side rear apron, not on the passenger side as the original poster stated. 

[rocket289k]

Most Metuchen buck tags that I've seen (mostly 1966's) were on the driver's side rear apron, not on the passenger side as the original poster stated.

My late July 65 Built Metuchen GT has the buck tag on the passenger side (the information matches the door plate, VIN, and the build sheet).  The buck tag was completely undisturbed and not painted on the backside.  I've actually only seen the '65 buck tags on that side (at least in the sample size of cars I've viewed).


Ron

[sgl66]

Mine is on passenger side also

[CharlesTurner]

There are lots of examples of buck tags with no punch outs.  Either is fine. 

[rocket289k]

There are lots of examples of buck tags with no punch outs.  Either is fine.

That's not exactly true in this circumstance (in my experience).  While it is true some buck tags do not have inspector punch-out,s I didn't want to mention that point in this thread since we are discussing a potential factory GT car and didn't want to complicate this discussion.  I have found that most (but not all) 65 buck tags in particular that contain options that would require an inspectors validation (e.g. appropriate cut outs or structural modifications for a GT) would have an inspector's punch-out on the buck tag.  If the buck tag didn't denote anything that required non-standard changes to the body (e.g a vinyl top) it seems to be more common that they remain "un-punched".  I'm sure there are exceptions to this given Ford manufactured thousands of cars and mistakes were made on the line. 

In my experience, '65 NJ factory GT cars normally have buck tags with punched inspector marks.  I have seen example of '66 NJ factory GT buck tags without the punch marks.  The lack of inspectors marks on a '65 GT buck tag would't be a "red" flag but it would make me look closer at the car purported to be a factory GT (since I have personally only seen a 2 or 3 NJ '65 GT buck without the inspection marks).

Having said that - given the car under discussion is a 1965 model and it is much more difficult to fake / clone than a 1966 there are other things to investigate than just the originality of the buck tag to help determine if it's a real GT.

Regards,

Ron

[JKWilson]

... if this car is a GT it should contain the reinforcements to the rear floor pans under the rear seats to accommodate the dual exhaust hangers.  If those floor pan reinforcements for the dual exhaust are not present, then it is not possible to be a factory GT.

Speaking strictly in absolute terms is a risky thing. While the rear floor reinforcement is normally found with factory dual exhaust, the lack of it is not an absolute indicator of the car NOT having factory duals. Case in point is my early '66 Metuchen built GT. The car is well documented as a true factory GT (one of the original build sheets and the buck tag). It lacks the rear floor reinforcements and the original floor pans were/are untouched. Just like ever other identifying characteristic used to help determine a factory GT car, it is a clue but not an absolute.

I'm certainly not trying to muddy the waters for the OP. I just want to clarify this particular point so that if he discovers no reinforcements present that he doesn't summarily write off the car as not being a factory GT car.

[rocket289k]

Speaking strictly in absolute terms is a risky thing. While the rear floor reinforcement is normally found with factory dual exhaust, the lack of it is not an absolute indicator of the car NOT having factory duals. Case in point is my early '66 Metuchen built GT. The car is well documented as a true factory GT (one of the original build sheets and the buck tag). It lacks the rear floor reinforcements and the original floor pans were/are untouched. Just like ever other identifying characteristic used to help determine a factory GT car, it is a clue but not an absolute.

I'm certainly not trying to muddy the waters for the OP. I just want to clarify this particular point so that if he discovers no reinforcements present that he doesn't summarily write off the car as not being a factory GT car.

Absolutely fair point - I should have said something along the lines of "If those floor pan reinforcements for the dual exhaust are not present, then it is likely not to be a factory GT unless it's a very rare exception".

As with any other production line mistakes sometimes happened and there are exceptions to general rules as your car highlights.  However, since most cars do not have the documentation that your car is very fortunate to have a "factory GT" without the reinforcement plates for the dual exhaust would be a point of suspicion.  Especially with the large number of 1965 and even more so 1966 GTs (since it is easier to do) that are dealer created and / or more modern day "clones / tribute cars".

Regards,

Ron

[jwc66k]

I stick a finger in the rear frame rail to see if there is a crush tube there, both sides if you are a skeptic. It's only present on factory GT or on "K" Mustangs. It can be faked, but if there's a doubt, look in the trunk over the rails to see how much cutting and welding was done. If someone went to all this trouble, and you can't tell, then I guess it's for real. On the plus side, you don't have to take out the rear seat. On the minus side, your knees get dirty.
Jim

[sgl66]

OP should look for a build sheet on the wiring harness and/or under the seats

[Turnall]

Most Metuchen buck tags that I've seen (mostly 1966's) were on the driver's side rear apron, not on the passenger side as the original poster stated.

My Oct 65 built 66 GT had the buck tag on the passenger side.

BTW, I need to come see you (I'm in Dothan, AL) so you can re-do my harness...

Allen