Topic: 67 Shelby GT500 Radio Options

[supersnake]

I was reviewing a Marti report for an early Shelby GT500 and it listed AM radio under the options.  My Marti report doesn't list this.  If the report doesn't list this item, is the car a radio delete car?  Also, what were the different radio options for the GT500?

[Bob Gaines]

I was reviewing a Marti report for an early Shelby GT500 and it listed AM radio under the options.  My Marti report doesn't list this.  If the report doesn't list this item, is the car a radio delete car?  Also, what were the different radio options for the GT500?

99% + came with AM radios from Ford. There are a few factory AM FM optional radios confirmed. I am not aware of any radio delete 67 Shelby's. You could confirm for sure by contacting the 67 Shelby Registrar through the SAAC website. Many times a dealer could be paid extra to install a alternate choice radio before the car was delivered to the first customer.

[WT8095]

I was reviewing a Marti report for an early Shelby GT500 and it listed AM radio under the options.  My Marti report doesn't list this.  If the report doesn't list this item, is the car a radio delete car?  Also, what were the different radio options for the GT500?

Look at the "order image" on your Marti report. That's the series of long numbers at the top of the report. The first row is position, the second row is the actual data. Look across to position 58 - what character is on the second row at that position? A "2" = AM radio.

Update: Added other codes

Blank: Radio delete
      1: Not used?
      2: AM Radio
      3: AM/FM Radio
      4: AM/8-Track Stereo Radio

[Texas Swede]

I looked at the Marti Report position 58 and it's empty. When I bought my 67, #1317, in the L.A. area in 1977 it had an AM radio in it as well as the antenna with a round base placed at
the passenger side front fender. The factory production order does not have any marks under radio either.
Texas Swede

[WT8095]

I looked at the Marti Report position 58 and it's empty. When I bought my 67, #1317, in the L.A. area in 1977 it had an AM radio in it as well as the antenna with a round base placed at
the passenger side front fender. The factory production order does not have any marks under radio either.
Texas Swede

Sounds like yours was a factory radio delete, with a dealer- or owner-installed radio.

[Bossbill]

Breaking this out from the Shelby Wheel thread.

On my GT350, 01375, Marti position 58 is blank. No mention of radio in the Marti report.
The SAI Production Order sheet lists "Radio X" (circle around X).
SAI invoice to Noller Ford lists "Radio - AM Push Button" for $47.17.
Window sticker lists "Radio $57.51."

Evidently my car is a factory radio delete car with an SAI installed radio.

[Brian Styles]

99% + came with AM radios from Ford. There are a few factory AM FM optional radios confirmed. I am not aware of any radio delete 67 Shelby's. You could confirm for sure by contacting the 67 Shelby Registrar through the SAAC website. Many times a dealer could be paid extra to install a alternate choice radio before the car was delivered to the first customer.

Based on my active research, which I will be publishing a full report on very soon, I am very confident in stating that less than 15% of the 1967 Shelby GT cars left San Jose (SJ) with an AM radio. A considerable amount (possibly even the vast majority) did get radios added at LAX by Shelby, and I'm sure that is what Bob meant in his reply.

The AM radio was an option. If Shelby didn't order one from Ford, it was not installed. Thus there the term "radio delete" would be an incorrect phrase to use (same would be true on a Mopar).

To know if your car had a radio when it left Shelby American (LAX), you'll need either the Production Order, Shelby Dealer Invoice or original Window Sticker. The Production order would have an "X" in the radio box if it left LAX with a radio. Also, the invoice and/or window sticker would have an itemized charge for the radio -- it there was no charge the car din't have a radio installed when it left shelby.

Of course some cars would also have had radios sold and installed by the dealer, but without an original sales order from the dealer, you can't be sure if the radio was there on the day it was sold or added at a later time... (for those that want to debate day 1 vs day 2 correctness).

With this understanding, I'd surmise that bossbill's car left San Jose without a radio and SAI added one at LAX. Texas Swede's car, on the other hand, did not get a radio installed by either Ford-SJ nor Shelby-LAX.

[Brian Styles]

Hey Folks --

As part of the active research into AM Radios I mentioned in my previous post, I'm also tangentially looking into which 1967 G.T. cars may have had their radio antennas installed to the rear quarter.

This topic is not intended to debate the 'correctness' or 'incorrectness' or 'judging standards' of a rear radio antenna installation. 

We all know that if a Shelby had an AM radio, either installed by Ford-SJ or by Shelby-LAX, there would have been a bagged antenna, appropriate length antenna cable and instructions to mount the antenna on the right front fender, included in the car. It is my understanding that the antenna installation would have been done by the dealership as part of their dealer prep of the car.

What I am interested in is RAW data. In your reply, please state if your car has a rear-mounted radio, if it ever had one, if you were told it had one, etc. -- whether you have any sort of solid evidence, period photos, etc. I'm also very interested to hear what the experts and judges have found on cars -- if you found a car with a rear antenna, even if you deducted points for it, I'd like to know about it.

I think that if we can get enough of a data sampling we may just find that rear-installed antennas may be attributable to specific dealers that regularly offered the option to customers -- either for aesthetics and/or because they were well-aware of the RF interference issues related to the Shelby fiberglass hoods.

If you'd rather not post publicly, please feel free to PM/email me directly. Thanks in advance for your help.

[Bob Gaines]

Hey Folks --

As part of the active research into AM Radios I mentioned in my previous post, I'm also tangentially looking into which 1967 G.T. cars may have had their radio antennas installed to the rear quarter.

This topic is not intended to debate the 'correctness' or 'incorrectness' or 'judging standards' of a rear radio antenna installation. 

We all know that if a Shelby had an AM radio, either installed by Ford-SJ or by Shelby-LAX, there would have been a bagged antenna, appropriate length antenna cable and instructions to mount the antenna on the right front fender, included in the car. It is my understanding that the antenna installation would have been done by the dealership as part of their dealer prep of the car.

What I am interested in is RAW data. In your reply, please state if your car has a rear-mounted radio, if it ever had one, if you were told it had one, etc. -- whether you have any sort of solid evidence, period photos, etc. I'm also very interested to hear what the experts and judges have found on cars -- if you found a car with a rear antenna, even if you deducted points for it, I'd like to know about it.

I think that if we can get enough of a data sampling we may just find that rear-installed antennas may be attributable to specific dealers that regularly offered the option to customers -- either for aesthetics and/or because they were well-aware of the RF interference issues related to the Shelby fiberglass hoods.

If you'd rather not post publicly, please feel free to PM/email me directly. Thanks in advance for your help.

Brian , the issue of rear antenna was not a issue on about 1/3 of production . The steel innerstructure on that portion provided shielding against static interference. The other issue is I doubt that by the time the problem was attributed to the all fiberglass hoods that the vast majority of 67 cars had already been sold . Most likely the rear antenna's were installed post sale and not prior to being delivered to the first customer.  Just my opinion.

[Brian Styles]

Brian , the issue of rear antenna was not a issue on about 1/3 of production . The steel innerstructure on that portion provided shielding against static interference. The other issue is I doubt that by the time the problem was attributed to the all fiberglass hoods that the vast majority of 67 cars had already been sold . Most likely the rear antenna's were installed post sale and not prior to being delivered to the first customer.  Just my opinion.

Hi Bob,
At this stage, I'm not trying to draw any conclusions or to have an opinion. Just gathering data. Like I said, it may have been a dealer-promoted option purely for aesthetics. If you know of any cars that you judged that had rear antennas, it would be good to create a list, just to explore all possibilities... I'm sure there were many owner-installed rear antennas too -- perhaps even most of them, but let's gather the raw data and see if any patterns emerge.... amazing how that happens sometimes

[Bob Gaines]

Hi Bob,
At this stage, I'm not trying to draw any conclusions or to have an opinion. Just gathering data. Like I said, it may have been a dealer-promoted option purely for aesthetics. If you know of any cars that you judged that had rear antennas, it would be good to create a list, just to explore all possibilities... I'm sure there were many owner-installed rear antennas too -- perhaps even most of them, but let's gather the raw data and see if any patterns emerge.... amazing how that happens sometimes

You can take a poll if you want to but I can't see how a poll based on unsubstantiated information that is contrary to accepted consensus of opinion will add in a positive way. If there is valid reasonable back up documentation is one thing . But owner say so has proven to be unreliable in other polls enough times that how could it be counted on to be any more valid in what findings you might come up with in this case. The problem as I see it is that many times a owner wants to defend their cars honor (originality ) when asked if something came a certain way as original on their car. It is all too common for a owner to want to believe that everything on their car is original. I can't count how many personalized features on cars that I have debunked over the years that a owner swears up and down was original.

[Brian Styles]

Bob,

I don't just plan to take an owner's word. It would certainly be nice have claims backed up with early photos. It would be nice to find verification that the front fender was never punched and welded-up as a result of the antenna being relocated by an owner. Also if the front fender was never punched, we'd want to verify it is dated correctly for the car. There are various Litmus tests we can apply, but that 's not going to happen if people are discouraged from provided the data...

To put this in context, we are talking about a DEALER-INSTALLED prep item here....

I'm not looking at this topic as a judge would for what is binary correct/incorrect.  I get your position. I understand your responsibilities as one.

We all know there was a recommended way of doing things (install radio antenna on right front fender), but then again, not every car came with a radio from SAI, right? So from a judging perspective, not every car should even have an antenna at all, right? I'm getting distracted.... once again, judging standards are not what my post was to be about.... as I originally posted .... in bold/underline:

This topic is not intended to debate the 'correctness' or 'incorrectness' or 'judging standards' of a rear radio antenna installation.

I'm simply a researcher, and as such, I planed to FIRST gather as much data as I could, then examine the data, then weed-out the opinion, hearsay and noise. After my data-set was refined, I'd comb through the records to see if any dealer-specific patterns emerged.

How about we just let this data gathering exercise happen? What possible harm could come from it? Hey, it will probably lead to a big nothing burger, but let's just see where it goes...   

[Bob Gaines]

Bob,

I don't just plan to take an owner's word. It would certainly be nice have claims backed up with early photos. It would be nice to find verification that the front fender was never punched and welded-up as a result of the antenna being relocated by an owner. Also if the front fender was never punched, we'd want to verify it is dated correctly for the car. There are various Litmus tests we can apply, but that 's not going to happen if people are discouraged from provided the data...

To put this in context, we are talking about a DEALER-INSTALLED prep item here....

I'm not looking at this topic as a judge would for what is binary correct/incorrect.  I get your position. I understand your responsibilities as one.

We all know there was a recommended way of doing things (install radio antenna on right front fender), but then again, not every car came with a radio from SAI, right? So from a judging perspective, not every car should even have an antenna at all, right? I'm getting distracted.... once again, judging standards are not what my post was to be about.... as I originally posted .... in bold/underline:

This topic is not intended to debate the 'correctness' or 'incorrectness' or 'judging standards' of a rear radio antenna installation.

I'm simply a researcher, and as such, I planed to FIRST gather as much data as I could, then examine the data, then weed-out the opinion, hearsay and noise. After my data-set was refined, I'd comb through the records to see if any dealer-specific patterns emerged.

How about we just let this data gathering exercise happen? What possible harm could come from it? Hey, it will probably lead to a big nothing burger, but let's just see where it goes...

The overwhelming vast majority were delivered to the first customer with a radio IMO. I have only seen one car with a factory radio delete and it was a Shelby car used for engineering purposes that was pictured in a vintage magazine. All the evidence that I have seen has the radios coming from Ford and information was on invoices and sometimes left off for reasons not completely understood like we have seen on other parts intermittently seen on invoices but known to be typically on all cars  . I didn't think Shelby had installed them after production like they did in 65 and 66 because of lower cost , but it is more of a possibility then dealer installed other then a AM FM or AM 8 track IMO. Most 67 Shelby's were built on speculation and not specific dealer orders from the evidence I have seen,  with that in mind it would seem that the AM radio would have made more sense for Ford to install but maybe SA did . That SA installed scenario seems to be gathering more weight recently.

[Brian Styles]

Bob,

Your opinion (the 'O' in the 'IMO') is always welcome, and I'm glad that you understand it is an opinion. Few, if any, have scrutinized more cars than you at shows and while judging. Your efforts and contributions are very valuable and important to the hobby. Clearly your opinion is based on cars you've seen, and who knows... maybe your opinion, based of your extensive sampling, will turn out to be relatively accurate of the whole?  I'm sure some of the cars may have had owner-installed radios, just like some of them may have had dealer-installed rear antennas.

I have not looked or judged cars for decades like you have. Instead, I analyze paperwork, gather data, and comb through that data. I try my best to keep opinions out until such a point as patterns emerge and i formulate a theory based on large amounts of matching data.

Hard evidence is hard evidence, and I will soon be sharing with everyone a comprehensive research document on radios.

As a precursor:
Radios were an option. They had to be ordered. The term 'radio delete' is therefore incorrect.
If Shelby didn't order a radio, Ford SJ didn't automatically put one in.
Only ~462 cars (less than 15%) left San Jose with an AM radio.
Radios were NOT standard equipment on a '67 Shelby. They were an option.
Many AM radios were installed by SAI before the cars were sent to dealers.
Some cars received AM-FM radios before being sent to a dealers.
Some cars never received a radio before being sent to dealers.

There are obvious patterns in the data. I ask that you please stay tuned (pun intended).

In the interim, I'd like to continue to car owners and judges to let me know what they have or have seen as it relates to rear-antenna installations. A PM is completely fine if you'd rather not face any sort of public scrutiny.

[Bob Gaines]

Brian ,heavy duty cooling was a option . We see that called out intermittently on invoices as a separate option ordered. Sometimes the Marti report indicates the option and sometimes it doesn't yet all the 67 Shelby's came with it. I have suspected that the radio might be a similar situation. Radio delete is the generic term that has been used on 65/66 GT350 since the SAAC's inception. By default it is the most understandable usage to the Shelby community. It is seldom used in the context of 67-70 Shelby because they all most typically got a radio.