Author Topic: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment  (Read 21536 times)

Offline rockhouse66

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 946
Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2016, 06:36:30 PM »
Re #2, yes.
Jim
'66 GT FB

Offline preaction

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1330
Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2016, 08:33:36 PM »
A 4150 Holley idles on all four venturis, so the secondary plate must be adjusted open the proper amount to idle correctly.  Generally, with the carb linkage "closed", the secondary butterflies should be open just enough to see the idle transfer slot.  It should look like a square, meaning the amount of the slot visible should be as high as the slot is wide.

One way to know whether the secondary butterflies are open at least in the ball park is that you should be able to adjust the idle stop screw to obtain a proper idle speed and still have no vacuum at the ported vacuum opening in the primary metering block.  If you have vacuum here, then the secondary is not open enough and not contributing to the idle speed as it should.
I looked at holley's info and they are saying to adjust the secondary stop screw to just touching and then 1/4 turn. Looking at my carb the secondary slots are at two different heights and what looks to be up the venturi a good ways so to uncover one would open the butterfly what seems to be too much. I cant seem to find info to read up on this.
8F02R218047-  July 18 1968   Dearborn

Offline Angela

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 836
Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2016, 11:25:09 AM »
To check vacuum during idle, should I use the vacuum port at the rear of the intake manifold spacer, which I believe normally connects to the transmission modulator -OR- should I connect my vacuum gauge to the vacuum port at the front of the carb, which normally connects to the distributor?

Aside from simply verifying I do or do not have vacuum during idle, should I do anything else while running the engine with the vacuum gauge connected?
For example, I plan to slightly lean the idle mixture from the present setting of 1.25 turns (from fully seated) to 1 turn. Should I be adjusting these idle mixture screws based on vacuum gauge readings? I don't know if the two things are related (idle mixture screw position and vacuum gauge readings)

Thanks

Offline rockhouse66

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 946
Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2016, 09:44:10 PM »
Vacuum gauge goes to the ported vacuum on the primary metering block (front of carb).  There is a technique to adjust spark advance for best vacuum but I'm not sure that adjusting the idle screws will give you any insight into the mixture.

You can see the secondary transfer slot in this picture I found on the Internet.  It is #2 in this picture.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 09:49:19 PM by rockhouse66 »
Jim
'66 GT FB

Offline WT8095

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 941
  • Dave Z.
Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2016, 10:24:34 PM »
Vacuum gauge goes to the ported vacuum on the primary metering block (front of carb).

A C7OF-D carb, which is the one in question if I'm not mistaken, doesn't have that port. If present, it would be the same as manifold vacuum, which is what you want to look at when adjusting idle.

Not to be confused with the side port, which is venturi vacuum.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 10:28:03 PM by WT8095 »
Dave Z.

'68 fastback, S-code + C6. Special Paint (Rainbow promotion), DSO 710784. Actual build date 2/7/1968, San Jose.
'69 Cougar convertible, 351W-2V + FMX, Meadowlark Yellow.

Offline rockhouse66

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 946
Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2016, 09:21:46 AM »
I'm referring to the vacuum you would read to determine proper adjustment of the secondary butterflies.  Same vacuum source that would go to the distributor vacuum advance.

Yes, manifold vacuum to adjust timing using the vacuum method.
Jim
'66 GT FB

Offline Angela

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 836
Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2016, 01:17:57 PM »
You guys have lost me....totally. "manifold vacuum", "side vacuum", "metering block vacuum port". I'm lost. Where are these ports? Are they truly measuring *different* vacuum???

To the comment that suggested it may not make sense to monitor vacuum while adjusting the idle mixture screws..... personally, I haven't a clue. However, reading David Vizard's "How to Super Tune and Modify Holley Carburetors" book, the author specifically states to use a vacuum gauge while adjusting the idle mixture screws. He says that when adjusted properly, there shouldn't be any vacuum at the carb when idling. --> Hence my question about where to plug in my vacuum gauge.

Help? I'm lost, based on the above posts.

Offline WT8095

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 941
  • Dave Z.
Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2016, 01:33:19 PM »
You guys have lost me....totally. "manifold vacuum", "side vacuum", "metering block vacuum port". I'm lost. Where are these ports? Are they truly measuring *different* vacuum???

To the comment that suggested it may not make sense to monitor vacuum while adjusting the idle mixture screws..... personally, I haven't a clue. However, reading David Vizard's "How to Super Tune and Modify Holley Carburetors" book, the author specifically states to use a vacuum gauge while adjusting the idle mixture screws. He says that when adjusted properly, there shouldn't be any vacuum at the carb when idling. --> Hence my question about where to plug in my vacuum gauge.

Help? I'm lost, based on the above posts.

There are two main vacuum signals to consider when working with carburetors:

Venturi vacuum is the amount of vacuum present in the main venturis. When the butterflies are closed at isle, there is little airflow through the main venturi, and the vacuum reading is low. As the butterflies open up, airflow increases, and venturi vacuum increases. This signal is usually used to advance the spark. On a 4150C carb, venturi vacuum is available on the side of the carb, at the 90 degree brass fitting (photo).

Manifold vacuum for the most part behaves inversely to venuri vacuum.It is a measure of the manifold vacuum below the throttle plates. At idle, with the butterflies closed, there is little airflow through the carb, so the vacuum is strong due to the pistons trying to suck air out of the manifold. As the butterflies open, air (and fuel) rush into the manifold, so the manifold vacuum drops off. Manifold vacuum is available at various places on the intake manifold, or on some carbs there's a port coming out below the throttle plates as rockhouse66 pointed out. C7OF-Ds & various other Holleys used by Ford don't have this port.

Your quote from Vizard is correct - at idle, venturi vacuum is low, manifold vacuum is high. I've not heard of using venturi vacuum to optimize idle, but there are other people here more qualified to comment on that.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 01:38:14 PM by WT8095 »
Dave Z.

'68 fastback, S-code + C6. Special Paint (Rainbow promotion), DSO 710784. Actual build date 2/7/1968, San Jose.
'69 Cougar convertible, 351W-2V + FMX, Meadowlark Yellow.

Offline Angela

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 836
Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2016, 03:21:37 PM »
Thanks! Your explanation is helpful and makes sense to me. In my application, I am aware of two vacuum ports at/near the carb: (1) passenger side front of carb, routing to the distributor and (2) underneath the carb at the carb spacer, routing to the transmission.

I'll check vacuum readings at both locations noted here. I think I should watch the vacuum value at location #1, while I adjust the idle mixture screws. Correct me if that's incorrect.

Another related question, could my stalling condition have anything to do with the vacuum provided from the carb spacer to the transmission? I have no idea what the vacuum sent to the trans is used for.

1967 eight barrel

  • Guest
Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2016, 07:52:07 AM »
Angela, have you removed a spark plug to check the color yet? That should determine if you're rich or lean.
There are MANY things that could be an issue. Timing is more forgiving at RPM that it is at idle.
If it is an original, you could have the issues I did with the dual quads on my Shelby. The throttle shafts were worn, which makes for a piss poor idle. If memory serves me correctly you have power brakes, so is the booster leaking?
Another possibility would be the metering block and contaminates in the emulsion tubes. Very common in older carbs, especially if they have set for a length of time.

As for San Jose's comment: You have NO idea how hard it is to get a competent person who knows Holleys inside out.
I have a pointer for you if you can't resolve the issue. At least he'll be able to rule out the carb being the culprit. He's from So Ca, like I am. However, he is now in Austin, Tx. I am sure he'd treat you right if you sent it to him and had him rebuild and do the dry spec set up.
                                                             -Keith
« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 07:54:50 AM by 1967 eight barrel »

Offline 70cj428

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 314
Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2016, 12:43:29 PM »
Hi Angela, Just read through your thread, and thought I'd offer my opinion. I've got a lot of experience with Holleys and tuning in general. It's a shame your not near Philadelphia, Pa as I'm sure we could get you straightened out in short order. It's really hard to diagnose a car without seeing it firsthand, but here's a few things to consider......

1st, about your trans question, although it's possible that you could have a converter issue that's causing it, It's HIGHLY unlikely with a C6 like you've got.  It's more prevalent in newer cars with a lockup clutch in the converter but it's still rare.

Although it's possible that it's an issue with the ignition system, that's also highly unlikely, assuming the car idles in park.

As for a Vacuum leak, since you have 17" of vacuum at idle, any leak is pretty small, and shouldn't cause your stalling.

A couple questions,
Does your car instantly and abruptly stall as soon as you put it in gear, or does it kind of stumble first ?
If you bring the RPM's up to about 1500/2000 then put it in gear, does it still stall ?
Can you drive the car, if so, how does it run at speed ?

Since it's kind of pointing to a carb issue, Here's a few things to check...

Do the mixture screws seem to affect the idle ? , will the car stall when you run one or both screws all the way in ?
I'd back the screws out about 3 turns or so and se if it still stalls. 3 turns should be pretty rich, but your car won't stall because of this and it will rule out the mixture adjustment.

Holleys are pretty simple, basic carbs, but they can still drive you nut's if they have issues..

If the car' still stalling in gear (and it's a carb issue) it's either really lean or really rich. Really lean could be caused by an internal carb issue but that's pretty unlikely. Because closing the choke (or cupping your hands over the carb) doesn't change anything and you get some improvement and an increased idle by cracking the secondary's, they both point to a REALLY rich carb condition. This is usually caused by one of two things on a Holley, Dripping boosters or and internal leak.

1st, start the car and look down the carb throats. see if you can see fuel dripping from the boosters onto the throttle plates. If you do, it's usually caused by your float adjustment being too high. Other causes can be a needle/seat issue, a float issue (binding or full of fuel), or fuel pressure too high.

If you see no evidence of fuel dripping from the boosters, I'd highly suspect an internal leak into the power valve well in the main body, either from a blown power valve (unlikely) or a warped metering block or main body (REALLY common on older Holleys)

If you're not comfortable with taking your carb apart, I'd try and borrow a known good Holley just to make sure your carb is your problem, then send your carb back to whomever rebuilt it or to a known good carb guy..

If you are comfortable in dissembling your carb. Drain the front fuel bowl into a cup or rag by removing a lower bowl screw (you can leave the carb on the engine.) carefully remove the front bowl and the front metering block. You should see a well (recess) in the carb body where the power valve sits. This well is connected directly to manifold vacuum  and any fuel that leaks into here gets sucked directly into the engine. The well should be dry, If it's wet, either the power valve is bad, not common, or the main body or metering block is warped. This is REALLY common with old holleys, as when the gaskets get old and leak, people tend to get king kong to tighten the float bowl screws to try and stop the leak. This causes the 4 corners of the main body where the bowl screws thread into to bow up and fuel to leak between the block and the main body and get drawn into the engine. You can check the main body and the metering block with a straight edge. If the block is warped, find another one, if the main body is warped (LIKELY) You can either have it milled flat, or spend about 1/2 hour with a sharp, wide, fine flat file and do it by hand. You'll have to take the carb off the engine, completely disassemble it, and clean it really well afterwards. Use a new power valve and a new power valve gasket.

At least 1/2 of the old Holleys I rebuild have at least some degree of distortion of the main body, warping a block is uncommon but you do find it occasionally.

Once you get the stalling thing fixed, you can use your vacuum gage to set your mixture screws. Start with 1 1/2 turns out and adjust each screw for the highest vacuum reading.

Let us know how you make out,

John

BTW, If you do find out your stalling was caused by your carb dumping fuel into the intake, make sure you change your oil, as a lot of the fuel will end up in the pan...




« Last Edit: February 07, 2016, 12:48:16 PM by 70cj428 »

Offline preaction

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1330
Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2016, 04:11:40 PM »
70cj428, where around Philadelphia are you located ?
8F02R218047-  July 18 1968   Dearborn

1967 eight barrel

  • Guest
Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2016, 09:11:12 PM »
70CJ, you and a few others are the odd balls. I do the basics, but there are few who have spent time mastering the intricacies of multiple Holley carburetion in this day and age. The side draft Mukunis on my Datsun SSS 510 and 2000 Roadster was even more difficult to get dialed in.
                                                                                   -Keith

Offline Angela

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 836
Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2016, 09:56:51 AM »
70CJ - wow, thanks for the detailed write-up. I appreciate everyone's comments & advice.

I still have no idea what's wrong with the car. I think I've tried everything that folks have suggested

I recently spoke with someone who claims to have run across the exact same issue with his 390 C6. Here's what I was told:

(1) His car behaved exactly as mine: immediately stalling upon shifting into any gear. It would run perfectly, *if* you could successfully feather the throttle while shifting into gear, which would keep the car running long enough to get it moving. Once moving, it would drive perfectly.

(2) He was told by the shop who rebuilt his tranny that the torque converter must be bad. They swapped the torque converter... and the problem remained exactly the same.

(3) The transmission rebuilder then said the problem could be with the valve body. The removed the valve body and said that it "was trying to enable drive and reverse at the same time". They rebuilt the valve body and reinstalled it. The car now works perfectly.... no more stalling.

Does any of that sound believable? If there's even a shred of truth to this, I would MUCH prefer to first try swapping my valve body before tearing apart the entire drivetrain to get at the TC. According to my invoice from the trans shop, the valve body in my 1967 C6 was replaced with a "68 valve body recall/update" when it was rebuilt - my point being that the part was touched and errors are made....it could have been rebuilt incorrectly.

Thoughts?


Offline WT8095

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 941
  • Dave Z.
Re: Holley Idle Circuit Adjustment
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2016, 12:38:14 PM »
According to my invoice from the trans shop, the valve body in my 1967 C6 was replaced with a "68 valve body recall/update" when it was rebuilt - my point being that the part was touched and errors are made....it could have been rebuilt incorrectly.

Thoughts?

Going back through the entire discussion, I didn't see any mention of transmission work. That's the sort of information that could be really helpful in working through the problem. Is there anything else that you haven't mentioned? Perhaps it would be best to go back to the beginning:
  • When was the last time the car functioned properly?
  • What has changed since then? That includes elapsed time, work that's been done, exposure to unusual weather conditions - anything you can think of.
Dave Z.

'68 fastback, S-code + C6. Special Paint (Rainbow promotion), DSO 710784. Actual build date 2/7/1968, San Jose.
'69 Cougar convertible, 351W-2V + FMX, Meadowlark Yellow.