Topic: Saw this on another site. Thoughts?

[workhorse]

"I recently attended a local Mustang show that was to be judged by appearance, fit, finish and cleanliness only. Although there were many classes of cars it appeared that one car, an unrestored ’65 was the topic of the judges discussion. The car was a very nice example, and was on par with other cars in its class as far as cleanliness (stock- 65-68, there was no class for unrestored). Fit and finish were as you would expect a 50 plus year old car to look next to restored classics and from where I sat, this was the debate.



FWIW, the car did win a sponsors award."






http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vintage-mustang-forum/908514-judging-thoughts-needed.html



Workhorse

[krelboyne]

The host(s) of a car show can run it any way they want, at least once. 
Why they would have judges for a peoples choice type of selection, I have no idea.

[mikelj5S230]

I think these "judges" probably were focused on "cleanliness" primarily, this is what many clubs (including MCA, IMO) focus on if there are no hard and fast expert judges and rules on "correctness".  A cleaning contest is what most become, since that is the easiest thing to judge objectively.  My KR was entered in the Santa Fe Concorso de'elegance show last weekend, where they use the "French" judging system for class winners and best in show. 

French Rules dictate that a team of judges (usually three) review a car for elegance and beauty and consider how it makes them feel. Physical condition and authenticity carry less weight than the grace and success of the design, although they are often used as tie breakers.

My KR came in behind an original '65 Cobra, which won the class.  The judges indicated that my newly restored KR was sterile  clean and more perfect in all ways, but the Cobra was more "significant" in design and history. 

[workhorse]

Wow! Congrats! Maybe that wasn't the result you were hoping for but still something to be proud of! 


Workhorse

[mikelj5S230]

I am proud of getting a ribbon in a very tough show with multi-million dollar cars like the Cobra and '67 Ferrari 275 NART Spyder. And I don't argue that the Cobra was a more significant design and history than the KR.

[CharlesTurner]

The concours d'elegance shows seem to focus a bit on the car design, which is more of giving the original manufacturer credit than the owner.  History and provenance are a big part though, which is cool.

I find it interesting that there have been several comments made that MCA stresses cleanliness over authenticity.  I've never really considered cleanliness more prestigious than authenticity.  The points are split down the middle 50/50, but that doesn't imply one is more important than the other.  It's always a good way to distinguish one car from another though when they are equal otherwise.  Cleanliness points seem to be freebie points, but surprisingly, a lot of cars lose lots of points there.

[mikelj5S230]

On cleanliness I always have the feeling that if the car is driven even a few road miles it is very bad.  One judge at a recent Concours judging said my car looked like it has been driven and that was a very bad thing.  There should not be a punishment for driving a car to get gas, etc. as long as it is clean, and not just sterile. 

[Bob Gaines]

On cleanliness I always have the feeling that if the car is driven even a few road miles it is very bad.  One judge at a recent Concours judging said my car looked like it has been driven and that was a very bad thing.  There should not be a punishment for driving a car to get gas, etc. as long as it is clean, and not just sterile.

It depends on the context of the statement IMO. The 3 Mustang /Shelby venues I judge with use a brand new condition as a yardstick to go by . With that said the more a car is driven the less it looks like brand new. When components start to show wear they are less then new clean or not. 

[somethingspecial]

The problem is not really a problem, but a fact of the human factor, meaning judging is very subjective.  My point is it may come down to the person/persons judging may collectively like red cars v. green cars and when a tie occurs, the red car gets the nod.  I had a very humble experience at a Concours d’Elegance in Fresno, Ca. one year when I spent a lot of money in entry fees, fuel, and lodging to attend the show and didn’t even place in my class.  This is because after a run of “Best in Class” awards, I became complacent about prep work and literally wiped the car down and placed it on the show field.  After the show, I ran into one of the judges and asked what he found wrong with my car.  He told me he was not allowed to discuss the issues, (unlike MCA Judges sheets, SCCA does not supply the judges sheets) but recommended I look at the winning car and take note of the cleanliness of the car, and then look at my car.  I was shocked at the filth on my car.  It was my fault and my fault only.  I spent 15 hours cleaning the car on and off a lift, and the next show was awarded the “Best in Class” award. 
   I don’t mind being bumped by a car that truly deserves the top award, and will shake the hand of the winner with glee and congratulate him/her.   I was bumped by a 69’ Camaro once, and the next show we both were bumped by a freshly restored Corvette.  The Camaro owner (who I have become good friends with) was livid.  I relayed my Fresno experience to him and told him it is good to be humbled from time to time.  (He too had won several venues he had entered) and recommended he to take the time to detail the car again.  He won the next show. 
   Look at the photo in final assembly line alignment here on this site and note the various size hammers on the hood.  We all know fit from the factory was sometimes questionable.  Winning an award falls on the owner of the car, and can be the difference as simple as the correct type tire valve stem caps.  Keep the car clean and then clean it again.  Even under the battery tray.  JMHO. 

[mikelj5S230]

I know rules may differ,  but when I judge Corvettes, condition , as in new, and cleanliness are different and separate. Light  dust on a brand new part is not an issue since when delivered that was commonplace coming off rail cars and carriers.  Dealers would not put cars on lifts to dust the tops of wheel wells and shocks, for example.   Maybe Ford dealers did?

[Smokey 15]

 We drive every car we own. That's what I build them for. We attend shows to have fun and interact with like-minded individuals. At one show, it had rained on the way there. I was busy detailing my wife's '79 Z/28 when a guy standing near me asked another guy if he drove down. The guy said, "No, I don't ever drive it. I don't want to do what he's (motioning toward me) doing.  I turned and said, "And I don't want to be like him. I built my car to enjoy. If I wanted a 'mantel piece', I'd buy a clock". I can't stand the cry-babies who don't win a trophy and pick apart other's rides. To each their own.

[workhorse]

last year’s Lake Mirror Concours had a cool display celebrating Mustangs 50th anniversary.
   http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=9635.msg56694#msg56694

I met a couple who owned the 13,000 mile hipo who said they don't do shows because the car is not restored. During our brief ten minute conversation about the car they were asked at least 10 times if they owned the Shelby next to them.

Fortunately they had a a great attitude about everything. "Beautiful day, beautiful cars, beautiful occasion and at the end of the day I get to take it home with me."

That's a winner in my book.


Workhorse

[Bob Gaines]

I know rules may differ,  but when I judge Corvettes, condition , as in new, and cleanliness are different and separate. Light  dust on a brand new part is not an issue since when delivered that was commonplace coming of rail cars and carriers.  Dealers would not put cars on lifts to dust the tops of wheel wells and shocks, for example.   Maybe Ford dealers did?

I for one never have deducted for light dust in a variety of places for the reasons of how the typical car back in the day would be found on the lot as well as extenuating conditions that sometimes happen on a show field . We don't expect the car to be the demonstrator  .  Mud splashed up in wheel wheels and other components ,lent on carpet ,spots on glass,are typically deducted for in concours class's . Just like fit and finish is typically expected to be as good or better then factory so is cleanliness .

[GT500KR]

We drive every car we own. That's what I build them for. We attend shows to have fun and interact with like-minded individuals. At one show, it had rained on the way there. I was busy detailing my wife's '79 Z/28 when a guy standing near me asked another guy if he drove down. The guy said, "No, I don't ever drive it. I don't want to do what he's (motioning toward me) doing.  I turned and said, "And I don't want to be like him. I built my car to enjoy. If I wanted a 'mantel piece', I'd buy a clock". I can't stand the cry-babies who don't win a trophy and pick apart other's rides. To each their own.

+1 The "Don't ever drive it" guys are missing the point, and hurting the hobby. When our cars aren't out on the road for the public to see, especially young people, (not just at car shows, where we are preaching to the choir) , our numbers will continue to get smaller.

[rodster]

On cleanliness I always have the feeling that if the car is driven even a few road miles it is very bad.  One judge at a recent Concours judging said my car looked like it has been driven and that was a very bad thing.  There should not be a punishment for driving a car to get gas, etc. as long as it is clean, and not just sterile.

Hence the reason for some people not wanting to drive a concours restored car. 

Value plays a part too. If driving a concours car is a bad thing, it has to hurt the value.  How much loss in value one can tolerate is an individuals choice.

I also thing originality of a restored car plays a part too. If you started with a very nice original car and restored most (all) of the original parts, do you want to take the chance of loosing it all to some fool texting while driving?

If the car was a basket case and is loaded with repo pieces, sheet metal, non original engine, etc. and IF something happens insurance will cover the cost to replace the parts and damage. Insurance can't bring back originality.

It's a sticky subject and not one size fits all.  Respect of owners decisions should be given, after all it's their car.

It is a fact that driving a restored concours car is a bad thing as it relates to concours judging. Fresh restorations are good.