Topic: '68 Starter Solenoid problems

[67gtasanjose]

My intent was to provide a possible contact (pun intended) for someone who rebuilds solenoids. The discussion was about problems with solenoids and progressed to repair and rebuilding. Information that can help someone find a rebuilder seems perfectly relevant to the discussion.

FYI, as Bob pointed out, the end-terminal style are probably not "heavy duty". The A3 vs A1 suffix in the part numbers usually indicates a cosmetic difference between functionally equivalent parts, in this case between different suppliers as Bob explained.

And much appreciated the contact info too.

Personally, I have rarely seen the A3 versions used on early Mustangs (65-70) but I did notice that by the mid-to late 70's the A3 versions (A3 version by sight, not engineering number) becoming more frequently spotted on a majority of Fords by then. In those days, functionality would usually be the only primary concern I may have had about a solenoid. The NEWER, the better, when needing one in those days. (I cannot recall ever buying a NEW one, I always had a junkyard full of "doner cars"). Date codes, engineering numbers was never a consideration.  Noticing a NEW one on a car, I may have snatched it off for a spare to use or sell before junking out the car.  I would have used any solenoid from any Ford that looked "new", anticipating less of a problem from new one over an old one.
OBVIOUSLY, most NEW ones of the 70's would have been made in the USA, so there would have never been a concern. Times have changed.

Looking back on my way of thinking from the 70's till joining this forum, I am extremely surprised that I never changed out the original solenoid on my 67 with a "newer replacement", as a preventative maintenance of sorts. Obviously, it hadn't failed ever and I must have gone with the old "If it ain't broke..." line of thinking.

At this point, it looks like I will be looking into rebuilding my date-correct original, and having an idea of the best way to do it will help.

The later A3 version looks much easily accomplished, like you can simply remove a date correct backing and rivet it, or have it riveted onto a NOS replacement.
The A1 version has the two items needing replated as well as re-working the innards.

I hope to hear that MIKE has success with rebuilding his.

[mikelj5S230]

In speaking about heavy duty, I am wondering about why the NAPA guy wanted to know the exact engine I had (428CJ) before he found the part, and when you order the Chinese "correct" one it seems one size fits all.  Did things change since '68?

[WT8095]

In speaking about heavy duty, I am wondering about why the NAPA guy wanted to know the exact engine I had (428CJ) before he found the part, and when you order the Chinese "correct" one it seems one size fits all.  Did things change since '68?

That could be just the way the NAPA computer system is set up. I went to a parts store recently to get a spray can of touch-up paint for my commuter vehicle. The counter person drilled through the sequence of dialogs, including "base model/LS/SS" and engine size, before getting to the paint code. She had no way to jump directly to the paint question.

[Bob Gaines]

In speaking about heavy duty, I am wondering about why the NAPA guy wanted to know the exact engine I had (428CJ) before he found the part, and when you order the Chinese "correct" one it seems one size fits all.  Did things change since '68?

Because they are programed to ask that series of questions even though it is irrelevant. From my interaction with the napa, ORielly's ,Advanced Auto or what ever local big chain is that they take turns trading off their employees with McDonalds drive thru personal.

[Bob Gaines]

And much appreciated the contact info too.

Personally, I have rarely seen the A3 versions used on early Mustangs (65-70) but I did notice that by the mid-to late 70's the A3 versions (A3 version by sight, not engineering number) becoming more frequently spotted on a majority of Fords by then. In those days, functionality would usually be the only primary concern I may have had about a solenoid. The NEWER, the better, when needing one in those days. (I cannot recall ever buying a NEW one, I always had a junkyard full of "doner cars"). Date codes, engineering numbers was never a consideration.  Noticing a NEW one on a car, I may have snatched it off for a spare to use or sell before junking out the car.  I would have used any solenoid from any Ford that looked "new", anticipating less of a problem from new one over an old one.
OBVIOUSLY, most NEW ones of the 70's would have been made in the USA, so there would have never been a concern. Times have changed.

Looking back on my way of thinking from the 70's till joining this forum, I am extremely surprised that I never changed out the original solenoid on my 67 with a "newer replacement", as a preventative maintenance of sorts. Obviously, it hadn't failed ever and I must have gone with the old "If it ain't broke..." line of thinking.

At this point, it looks like I will be looking into rebuilding my date-correct original, and having an idea of the best way to do it will help.

The later A3 version looks much easily accomplished, like you can simply remove a date correct backing and rivet it, or have it riveted onto a NOS replacement.
The A1 version has the two items needing replated as well as re-working the innards.

I hope to hear that MIKE has success with rebuilding his.

Or the short answer is  you can take a working unit and plate the bracket on the unit after sealing up the vent on the bottom side of 67 and up . Not necessary on 65/66 earlier ventless  units. You have to have the plating equipment like many of us already have,

[Brian Conway]

Thanks for the look inside Krelboyne.  Just what part of this operation is causing all the trouble ?  Brian

[drummingrocks]

I think it's usually poor contact between the copper posts and the internal element (not sure of the exact name, but the round piece in your pictures).  I've tried, but for the life of me, I can't find a thread that I KNOW I read earlier this year.  I'm not sure if it was on here, VMF, or some other Ford-related site, but the guy posted step by step pictures of disassembling the solenoid, and showed exactly what had failed and how he fixed it.  I remember in particular that he showed a repro solenoid, and pointed out exactly why so many of them stick. 

[carlite65]

i read that thread too but it beats me where i saw it.

[drummingrocks]

You're in luck: I just found it again.  http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vintage-mustang-forum/873730-ever-wonder-what-inside-solenoid-looks-like.html

[Brian Conway]

OK great.  So maybe that article should go to the library ?  So the  large copper disc should be cleaned up, on the contact/down side, and the bolt/contact terminals should be cleaned up and spun 180'.  Sound about right ?  Brian

[67gtasanjose]

Or the short answer is  you can take a working unit and plate the bracket on the unit after sealing up the vent on the bottom side of 67 and up . Not necessary on 65/66 earlier ventless  units. You have to have the plating equipment like many of us already have,

Got it!
I remembered reading several threads several years ago, deciding at the time to "restore my original before "SHOWTIME", but always figured my new D2 Motorcraft would suffice at "STARTUP" time. Now that I lost a week repairing the damnage...I wish to warn others reading along...

JUST USE AN ORIGINAL SOLENOID ONLY!

No matter how "UGLY" ugly can be, the very POSSIBILITY of what I went through last Monday evening exists...my brand new MOTORCRAFT starter solenoid stuck, it did so on the very first "momentary" cranking, like as in I only "clicked" the key to "START" position to test starter function and it kept cranking over. I whacked the solenoid with the ball of my hand and it quit. Next time it didn't stick. Following time it did again.

Longer story, I'll leave out some details but I was under the impression my factory tachometer had defected over the down-time of the restoration (engine would only stay running when in START position) so I built a jumper wire from an old resister wire extracted from an old dash harness to start and warm my engine last weekend.

I went chasing after the "no start in ON position" last Monday evening, first by bypassing the tach (jumped the wires together at the tach connectors). I tried starting it again, the new Motorcraft D2 solenoid stuck AGAIN but I INADVERTENTLY DID NOT TURN OFF THE KEY THIS TIME as I ran around to whack the solenoid (which again, stopped the cranking), went back to the tachometer connectors, saw the key ON, turned it off...grabbed the connectors to unplug for testing and THEY WERE HOT TO THE TOUCH! Now, with the tach unplugged, I turned the key back on, (DID NOT GO TO START) and smoke began a few seconds later. The Brown IGN. wire, beginning at the solenoid, cooked itself back to the key switch.

What a nightmare. Essentially, what happened is the solenoid "I"-terminal, tried to run the starter motor and if you understand wiring harnesses and current loads, this is the equivalence of using a 14-guage wire to Jumpstart a car! Perhaps a look inside the solenoid that stuck will also show heat on the I-terminal to Starter Post jumper (internal of solenoid) but at this time, my only concerns are to move on with the project...I'll restore my original one some day or another like kind (original) and never look back at anything else on the market.

It is all repaired now (a week later) AND I have the ugly old solenoid in place now and wouldn't you know...even my tachometer is still good!

BTW, before hunting up the original +200,000 mile C7 solenoid that I took off my project at time of teardown, Sunday morning early on,, before connecting the car again to the battery, I tried a SECOND new MOTORCRAFT solenoid, acquired from my local Ford Dealer and the "MADE IN CHINA"(on the box) stuck on the first 2 tries...right out of the box, no other wires on the solenoid, just the primary Battery Cable and the Starter cables.

[J_Speegle]

BTW, before hunting up the original +200,000 mile C7 solenoid that I took off my project at time of teardown, Sunday morning early on,, before connecting the car again to the battery, I tried a SECOND new MOTORCRAFT solenoid, acquired from my local Ford Dealer and the "MADE IN CHINA"(on the box) stuck on the first 2 tries...right out of the box, no other wires on the solenoid, just the primary Battery Cable and the Starter cables.

Not sure of the part numbers but think there are three or more versions. Some look like our originals (post number and locations) some have one small post while others have no small posts.  Had to buy a couple for my 2000 diesel (rakes two) and they were the no post version if I recall correctly

[69bossnut]

I know this thread is older but thought I might be able to clear some things up. I have restored both types of solenoids. I don’t anymore because they are just too time consuming. First there is a cosmetic restoration when the solenoid is still working but the plating is old & housing is in rough shape. Then there is the restoration of a non-wiring solenoid. Both to do correctly you have to take completely apart. This requires drilling out the 4 rivets that hold the back plate on. This will allow you to remove the plunger on the standard style by loosening the small studs. Once the plunger & spring are removed you can loosen the nuts holding the other studs & remove. The coil wire will be spot welded to one of the small studs. You can just remove & place under the stud so when you tighten it up it will make contact. The other end of the coil wire will be spot welded to the thick washer that held into the housing by the stud that is crimp also holding the top mounting bracket. In order to remove the crimped stud you have to drill it out or drill past the crimped part & drive the remaining piece out. After replating the upper brkt., lower cover & small studs if it is a working solenoid & just reassembling. The stud that is crimped holding the top bracket has to be custom made by yourself or machine shop as you can’t buy it anywhere. Then it has to be annealed & plated. A special die has to be made to replicate the crimp. Then reassemble the other components after cleaning all the contacts. If you were able to save the gasket for the bottom plate great. If not you’ll have to make one. Now if going back 100% correct the lower plate rivets are a flat round rivet & not available anywhere that I have found. So they have to be made as well. Or you can use the common truss head tubular rivet instead but not as original. Then replace the felt on the vent if it has that style bottom cover. Of coarse after the housing has been stripped you’ll have to buff and polish. If it is a non-working unit you’ll have to check the contacts or coil & rob parts from a good working solenoid.
The heavy duty units (although agree with Bob I haven’t seen anything that makes it heavy duty) is easier as just remove lover cover disassemble, replace studs & clean copper studs. If early version clean aluminum backing plate. If later it will be a steel plate that will need replated. Then reassemble just remember to test it before putting bottom plate back on. In case I haven’t explained this clear enough I would be happy to answer any questions. The standard solenoid is very time consuming to correctly rebuild.

[ruppstang]

David you are man, you can fix anything! Most original Ford units work so I will keep doing the comedic restorations. I am nowhere nearly capable to do what you described.