Topic: Paint, Single Stage?

[68gurney]

Its time to paint my '68 Cougar. June '68 Dearborn build. Polar White. I've been going back on forth on the choice of single stage or two stage base/clear paint. And I'm about 90% convinced that I'm going to do single stage. Most people tell me to use modern base coat/clear coat as they just "look better".

Am I crazy doing single stage?

If I go single stage, is there is preferred brand or type of paint?

Urethane over enamel?

I'm shooting for a "concourse-driven" level restoration so I want to be correct. So I believe that single stage is the right thing to do. The body shop is competent in both.

[cobrajetchris]

Single stage paint is fine on non metallic colors. The problem with it on metallic colors is if you have to buff it (most of the time you do) the metallic colors will become blotchy and cloudy looking. Urethane or catalyzed acrylic enamel would be fine however the urethane will be more durable and chip resistant if you plan on driving the car. The advantage of a 2 stage base clear system is reparability if you have to repaint a panel. The base color can be blended into the repaired panel and the entire panel cleared which avoids a mismatch to the adjacent panel.  I think either way you go it will be fine since you are dealing with a color that matches pretty well when repainted. One thing I love about single stage solid colors is they touch up very nice. Myself I would use a urethane single stage paint if I was painting a solid white car. This of course is my opinion and hope this helps you in your decision.

[CharlesTurner]

Single stage metallic can be done, it just takes a more experienced painter with a very clean paint environment.  Any mottling or floating of the metallic (within reason) would actually be considered concours correct as this has been seen on many original paint cars.  Probably not many judges familiar with this though.

PPG DCC Concept is a good paint line for single stage.

[Smokey 15]

Single stage paint is fine on non metallic colors. The problem with it on metallic colors is if you have to buff it (most of the time you do) the metallic colors will become blotchy and cloudy looking. Urethane or catalyzed acrylic enamel would be fine however the urethane will be more durable and chip resistant if you plan on driving the car. The advantage of a 2 stage base clear system is repairability if you have to repaint a panel. The base color can be blended into the repaired panel and the entire panel cleared which avoids a mismatch to the adjacent panel.  I think either way you go it will be fine since you are dealing with a color that matches pretty well when repainted. One thing I love about single stage solid colors is they touch up very nice. Myself I would use a urethane single stage paint if I was painting a solid white car. This of course is my opinion and hope this helps you in your decision.

I agree with Chris. Urethane paints are much more durable. Use a quality paint and use everything (paint/primer/sealer,etc.) from the same manufacturer.

[J_Speegle]

Allot of painters today like the BC/CC paints since IMHO it doesn't take the effort and focus a single stage (that will not be cut and buffed) requires.

The BC/CC cars often roll out of the booth with dozens of runs and other things. They tell be that as long as they get enough clear on the car it will all come out in the cut and buffing. Yes it looks smoother and more perfect than the single stage laid by the same painter  but those shops are not typically painting restored cars but pretty cars.

I wish we had the choice locally to have/use single stage paints - instead it requires allot of miles of trailering

[Building 3]

I went through your same decision process on my Mustang. I am no paint expert, just a Mustang owner who wanted his car restored. The paint shops recommended the modern base/clear because it is easy to do, easy to repair, and looks better to most people, especially the casual observer.  I was told that single stage is harder to do for a variety of reasons and may cost more because of the extra care and labor involved. Of course, you need to find someone who is an expert in this process and not someone just "willing" to do it for you. I spent a summer going to as many car shows and auctions as possible to look at cars and talk to owners about their paint and their opinions. My conclusion was that too many base/clear paint jobs look like the cars were dipped in clear. They would be more appropriate at a "Hot Rod" or custom show but not at all appropriate for a Concours restoration or one that tried to approach one. A very small percentage of the base/clear looked great, and to me, looked like single stage.  I am sure that would not be the case for the judges at an MCA event though. My decision was to go with single stage urethane.  The single stage paint just looked better to me and more appropriate for a 1960's car.  It just "looks right." The paint shop picked BASF products and yes, they used BASF products for everything related to the job.  They made that very clear that if there was a problem, the company would only stand by the warranty if all of their materials were used. They said they called the BASF Hot Line several times in the process to get technical advice and they were very happy with that help. The paint shop picked BASF, but I am sure there are other companies that make excellent products too. I am very happy with they paint job on the car and for a car that will be driven only several hundred miles a year this was the was to go.     

[68gurney]

Thanks for your comments, ok its single stage. Seems like consensus on the best product is PPG Concept urethane. I've read elsewhere that it's now discontinued, true? What about availability in California?  If not, what are the best alternatives?

[J_Speegle]

Thanks for your comments, ok its single stage. Seems like consensus on the best product is PPG Concept urethane. I've read elsewhere that it's now discontinued, true? What about availability in California?  If not, what are the best alternatives?

Currently, in California, this sort of thing is governed by the Air Resources Board in each geographic area (does not follow country lines) as far as I know so it depends on where you are what you can legally shoot. Its a crazy mixed up way to do things and produces IMHO some odd combinations were you can apply certain products one city over and not in your location. Many painters have just given in and shot the water based stuff and leave it at that

You can purchase many products (even if you have to travel a distance or mail order it in), it is the application  and a painter that seems to be the issue.

[jwc66k]

Currently, in California, this sort of thing is governed by the Air Resources Board in each geographic area (does not follow country lines) as far as I know so it depends on where you are what you can legally shoot.
You can purchase many products (even if you have to travel a distance or mail order it in), it is the application  and a painter that seems to be the issue.

The full name is California Air Resources Board" abbreviated "CARB", and the state's bureaucrats hate that four letter word.
The painter I recommend and use is about 60 miles away. The shop is in his garage but it's paint only, no body work (his knees are as bad as mine). He prefers single stage paint and does a good job in reproducing the effect you want, both orange peel, and metal flake. His paint is "imported" (from other states). It's word of mouth referrals (minimal written advertising).
Jim

[cobrajetchris]

I read comments saying that the base clear paint job is easier than the single stage and that is not always the case. The same issues come up in base clear finishes as single stage such as orange peel, dirt, runs, mottling of the metallic and so on. The main reason it's used in shop's today is that is what came on most cars since the mid 80's and the formulas for the base are created for the two stage system. The base clear is a more forgiving if you need to buff a metallic color but other than that I really can't think of how it's much easier. In fact you end up putting more coats on with a base clear system, normally 2-3 coats of base coat and allow each coat to flash enough to tack it off before applying the next then 2- 3 coats of clear. A single stage system is normally 2-3 coats.
 I thinks as for as being original we tend to over restore our cars today in many ways and especially paint. I would be willing to bet if a guy was to paint his old car in a acrylic enamel single stage and did not do any sanding or buffing some judges would deduct for orange peel or poor coverage that is typical on the underside of the rocker panels. I remember looking at a 1800 mile original 1982 Mustang GLX that was all original and note even washed much and the orange peel was so heavy it would be looked at as an economy repaint by todays standards. There is still orange peel in todays cars but it's much lighter as it's not applied by humans in most areas which makes it much more consistent and the clears do flow better than the old enamels. You can put as much orange peel as you want in a base clear system it's all how you lay down the clear. The Hot rod look you see on many cars is not because it's base clear it's because the painter applies 3 or more coats of clear and then wet sands the panel down flat and buffs it which gives It the smooth wet look. The same thing was done with the lacquer paints in the 50's and 60's. I agree this does not look right on a car that is to be restored original but many of them are that way. I think one reason is you can clean up a lot of mistakes by sanding them flat and buffing. Paint work is all about prepping the car and good work habits.
 

[J_Speegle]

I read comments saying that the base clear paint job is easier than the single stage and that is not always the case. The same issues come up in base clear finishes as single stage such as orange peel, dirt, runs, mottling of the metallic and so on.............

Chris just sharing what painters I know and see almost weekly have explained, shared and demonstrated for me a bunch of times. Like most things I'm sure it depends on the individual

I would be willing to bet if a guy was to paint his old car in a acrylic enamel single stage and did not do any sanding or buffing some judges would deduct for orange peel or poor coverage that is typical on the underside of the rocker panels. .........

Never had an older car that was cut and buffed after it was painted and can report that that has not been the case in my experiences but I'm sure there are some judges that some judges have gotten so use to the dipped in plastic look that they would make that mistake...... they often would be the same ones that would deduct for other correct parts.

One of the things we try and do here is to offer a look at unrestored cars rather than the restored since many have difficulty, it seems, finding anything other than restored cars to learn from

Bottom line - I do agree that many have become accustom to the over restored look

[68gurney]

Well after discussing with the body shop owner and painter that I have chosen, it's going to be two stage. I would have really preferred a nice single stage paint job and the painter and shop has a lot of experience with them in the past. They tell me the current paint formulations just suck. They use mostly PPG products and have not been able to get Concept for a while now, and every single stage paint available to them has a sub-standard hardener. So they are strongly recommending two stage. The shop owner is restoring a 69 Black Charger right now and wanted to do single stage for the same reasons I did, but he is doing two stage as well.

[PerkinsRestoration]

Well after discussing with the body shop owner and painter that I have chosen, it's going to be two stage. I would have really preferred a nice single stage paint job and the painter and shop has a lot of experience with them in the past. They tell me the current paint formulations just suck. They use mostly PPG products and have not been able to get Concept for a while now, and every single stage paint available to them has a sub-standard hardener. So they are strongly recommending two stage. The shop owner is restoring a 69 Black Charger right now and wanted to do single stage for the same reasons I did, but he is doing two stage as well.

PPG  DCC is readily available with five different hardeners available. Google PPG concept for product sheets and give them to your paint shop. I would suggest you not settle for BC on a white car!

[WT8095]

They tell me the current paint formulations just suck.

Statements like that make me question the painter's diligence and competence.

[Building 3]

I am not a painter, but as I said above, the painter I used, used BASF and I am thrilled with the result. So there's PPG, and BASF and probably others. If you never plan to take your car to a judged Concours or an MCA that is one thing, but if you do you will be able to see the difference in the paints. I just went to a car show with over 500 cars, and the clear coated ones really stuck out. Some 2-stage were better than others, but some had that fake dipped look that you certainly don't want if you go that way. I would check other paint shops in the area.  Also, call the tech hot lines of the major paint companies. You can probably get a lot of good information from them. But I would not "settle" for a paint job. It is too big of an investment, and not easy to change later.