Topic: Parts "cobbing" fraud?

[Smokey 15]

 /\/\/\ Good points, Sir. The original intent of the thread was about larceny by conversion regarding selling a car "as concourse", then swapping out the parts that made the car fit that description.  Somehow, we got off the track and into the "what-ifs" of judging. Thank You for clearing that subject up concisely.

[mikelj5S230]

BTW, the author of that article in the Ford mag did a book called "Corvette Masterpieces" than showed some cars as authentic that were frauds, he said he didn't know at the time he wrote the book…….

[workhorse]

I thought this reply on VMF was pretty interesting.
"Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact, Is this the exact car that won the concours, all original award? If something has been changed then the answer is no. (2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, Again, if they made a change, then they know this not to be true. (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, Did they disclose that the items on the car when it won these awards have since been changed? (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, Is the buyer justified in believing the sellers statements to be true based on undisputed facts (in this case a well known collector or a nationally recognized award? and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result. Did they overpay for a false car?

This is fraud.

On a lesser note, swapping parts "among friends" to "win" an award only shows that all parties involved are as shallow as a $99 Maaco paint job.

Workhorse

[Dirk Pitt]

If a "hobbyist" is after a judging award and borrows parts to simply to enable a car to attain a higher judging award then have at it.  I don't see anything wrong with that.  After all, it is simply a piece of paper to share with your fellow hobbyist friends.

However, IF the results of the judged event are to be used to help market/promote the car for resale and the missing/borrowed parts are not clearly disclosed- then all of us suffer for the lack of integrity of everyone complicit with the aforementioned actions.  The risk is that all cars suffer some devaluation due to the inference that the hobby is rife with fraudulent behavior.  I also don't think it is the responsibility of judges to verify the origination of parts on a car to be judged.  Where they came from, who they belong to and if they will be on the car 20 minutes after the judging is complete seems a bit much to put on the judge at an MCA event.

Thanks to e-bay, the proliferation of made-for-TV restorations/auctions, consignment sellers and the above behavior - bottom line is buyer beware in this "hobby."

[CharlesTurner]

Seems the organizations that judge these cars may need to add some type of disclaimer to the judging sheets/results that states something to the effect that the car was judged as represented at the location specified.  After the judging is completed, it cannot be guaranteed that the car is in the same condition, with the same parts as when judged. 

If judging sheets are used to place a +value on a car, then that may open up the judging organization in some manner.

As far as the swapping out friends' parts for shows... it may not be 'cheating' from the judges perspective, but it definitely is a shallow thing to do.  If the award is that important, just get one made at the local trophy store and hang it in the garage.

[PerkinsRestoration]

 Jeff,
Borrowed parts is part of Jerry's article so I feel it's relevant. Not sure about other venues but MCA requires the owner of the entry to be a current MCA member. Borrowing parts to get an award is cheating in my opinion. If a friend lends you a promotional item such as a license plate that is cool but not judged no big deal. However, the practice of borrowing parts has gotten worse recently in my opinion. I'm sure you remember the SAAC Premier Shelby that was going for the triple crown in Des Moines a couple years ago. Somewhere between SAAC & MCA key parts fell off the car? Fact is the lease expired on the borrowed parts? Not a pleasant situation for several judges and the owners. Still it continues to happen in the top classes. Some restorers even brag about borrowed parts during judging. This practice of borrowed parts often leads up to unethical advertising in sale of the car down the road. Will the seller disclose the car had borrowed parts when it won the awards? It's my opinion Borrowed parts and falsely advertising "award car" are both unethical and often the same.
 Fortunately most owners have the integrity to not cheat or deceive to win a trophy or sell a car. 
   

[mikelj5S230]

Seems the organizations that judge these cars may need to add some type of disclaimer to the judging sheets/results that states something to the effect that the car was judged as represented at the location specified.  After the judging is completed, it cannot be guaranteed that the car is in the same condition, with the same parts as when judged. 

If judging sheets are used to place a +value on a car, then that may open up the judging organization in some manner.

As far as the swapping out friends' parts for shows... it may not be 'cheating' from the judges perspective, but it definitely is a shallow thing to do.  If the award is that important, just get one made at the local trophy store and hang it in the garage.

This is the legal disclaimer we have on NCRS Awards:  "NCRS does NOT certify or in any other way attest to the originality of any car receiving ANY NCRS judging award.  NCRS judging awards represent the opinions of volunteer judges on a given date as they understand and interpret the standards, which may or may not be correct.  Any subsequent purchaser, observer, or judge should evaluate such car ONLY on the basis of their knowledge and opinion and WITHOUT RELIANCE ON ANY NCRS JUDGING AWARD."

This covers most everything, including parts cobbing

[ruppstang]

 
 
*****
 - CECaspian65
 


Seems the organizations that judge these cars may need to add some type of disclaimer to the judging sheets/results that states something to the effect that the car was judged as represented at the location specified.  After the judging is completed, it cannot be guaranteed that the car is in the same condition, with the same parts as when judged.


The MCA is now doing this as shown on the Certificate of Achievement disclaimer.   We thought some down the road some one would use it to prove the car's worthiness at a sale or auction. We felt compiled to add the disclaimer to protect the club and future buyers.
Marty

[WT8095]

On a lesser note, swapping parts "among friends" to "win" an award only shows that all parties involved are as shallow as a $99 Maaco paint job.

Just as bad as 5-year olds wearing makeup, hair extensions and false teeth to win a beauty pageant. Creepy. That'll be the next reality show - "Concours & Cobbers". 

[CharlesTurner]

The MCA is now doing this as shown on the Certificate of Achievement disclaimer.   We thought some down the road some one would use it to prove the car's worthiness at a sale or auction. We felt compiled to add the disclaimer to protect the club and future buyers.
Marty

Thanks Marty, that's a good start, but from what I understand, these certificates have to be requested and are not free.  Similar statements on the actual judging sheets might be something to consider.

[67gtasanjose]

Oh - did find the use of the term "cobbing" and interesting one.

I wonder if fellow member Bryan Cobb agrees

[67gta289]

Oh - did find the use of the term "cobbing" and interesting one.

I did also. This is what I found

verb
Word forms:  cobs,  cobbing,  cobbed
8.(transitive) (British, informal) to beat, esp on the buttocks

Perhaps this would be an appropriate punishment for those involved?  Ha.

[ruppstang]

Thanks Marty, that's a good start, but from what I understand, these certificates have to be requested and are not free.  Similar statements on the actual judging sheets might be something to consider.

That is a great suggestion, that should be considered.