Topic: Control Valve / Cylinder hose leaks/seats

[Angela]

I finally located a set of C6OZ-3A714 / 3A717 "shortie" hoses that route between the slave cylinder and the control valve. However, I cannot get them to stop leaking. Using a 1/2" flare nut wrench, I tighten the nut... but the hose wants to turn at the same time, thus it's difficult to know if the flare at the end of the hose is staying correctly oriented with the seat in the cyl or valve. I've loosened, re-seated and re-tightened the stupid hoses about 10 times now and they still leak. It's driving me mad. I'm looking for advice. I have a few specific questions:

(1) I'm using a set of Craftsman flare nut wrenchs, yet they're kinda "thick" and difficult to mate with the fittings at the control valve. Is anyone aware of a company that makes a "thin-wall" flare nut wrench?
(2) What's the trick to hold the hose and keep them from turning while you attempt to tighten the nuts? I cannot find a strap wrench that works with this small of a diameter.
(3) Is there one and only one specific orientation the hose has to make with the cylinder or valve in order to get the seat and flare to seal? I've tightened the nuts about as tight as I think is reasonable and yet they just keep leaking.
(4) I'm using type F fluid (yet don't recall which brand I used but am pretty sure I bought motorcraft). I have read a few posts on other forums stating craziness that one should use NAPA 75-205 type F fluid because it's thicker and thus won't leak as easily. Is that nonsense?

[67gtasanjose]

Two things that may help or may have helped avoid these leaks. Stagersite sells kits that have new seats in them, most other kits or rebuiders do not have or do not replace the hose seats.
http://www.stangerssite.com/CVparts.html

2nd, Crafsman tools in general are entry level good at best. IMHO, their Flare nut wrenches are about the worst quality out there. Snap On, Mac, and I am sure many other professional quality tools will more than likely have the thinner wall wrench.I think the Duralast brand at Autozone are probably better than the Craftsman line wrenches. I have Snap On flare wrenches and a few Craftman wrenches too. I basically never use the Crafstman ones...they are a real joke, again, just my opinion.

If you get a good set of wrenches and still have the leaks, you might see if you can still change out the seats while they are assembled on the car. Also, though not as likely, any USED hose flare can be cracked and cause a leak. On these shorty hoses, it would be almost undetectable by just looking at them. I hope that isn't your case.

Good luck, maybe others have some different insight.

Richard

[Angela]

Ahhhh, very interesting..... so you're telling me there are supposed to be seats inside the control valve, which should be replaced during a rebuild. I had Randy from stangerssite rebuild this control valve and the cylinder, and I assume he would have put new seats in the valve. I wonder if there are seats in the cylinder as well.

I'm not using used hoses.

I suppose I need to contact Randy and find out if I need new (again) seats and if they can be replaced in the car.  I just had the front end aligned... it would stink if I had to tear the steering apart.         

[WT8095]

The control valve and ram both have pressed-in seats that the tube flares seal against. If they are worn or damaged they will not seal properly. They can be extracted and replaced fairly easily. Here's an article showing how rebuild a ram that talks about seat replacement:

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/mump-1303-how-to-reseal-power-steering-cylinders/

Another possibility is that the flares on the hoses are damaged. The fact that the hoses are twisting so badly when you tighten the nut raises the possibility that the tube is bent inside the nut, preventing the flare from gimbaling into contact with the seat. When the hoses are off of the valve, can you turn the nut freely on the tube?

Lastly, if the flare nuts are bottoming out before the flares tighten against the seats, you will have a leak. The threads may be corroded or crudded up. I don't think you'll be able to properly chase the threads without pulling the seats.

As far as fluid goes, if viscosity makes the difference between leaking and not leaking, the flare isn't properly seated. That's a band-aid, not a solution.


Update:
Another good article that talks about the tube seats and shows some close-up photos:

http://www.stangerssite.com/CanIControlValve.html

[Angela]

Neat info on the flare nut seats. Has anyone installed new seats and if so could you offer any advice?

[WT8095]

Neat info on the flare nut seats. Has anyone installed new seats and if so could you offer any advice?

I have not, but I just noticed that the second link I posted was to a page on stangerssite. You mentioned Randy rebuilt your valve, so clearly he is knowledgeabe about the seats. Contacting him, as you yourself suggested, would be a great place to start!

[Angela]

Update:
I spoke with Randy at Precision products and discussed the hose leaks. Per his advice, I removed the hoses, then removed the new tube seats Randy had installed for me and am going to reinstall another new set of seats. I then inspected the C60Z-3A714-A and C60Z-3A717-A which I obtained from Bluedot Specialties. In short, I am extremely disappointed in the hoses from blue dot. It's my belief that the reason the hose tubes turned when I attempted to tighten the nuts is because unlike the original or NOS hoses, the bluedot hoses have clearly visible seams down the length of the metal tubes. These unfinished seams cause the nuts to catch on them when you try to tighten them. Additionally, the tube seam continues into the flared end, thus creating a nice little path for power steering fluid to leak out. At $50 a hose, I am disgusted at the poor quality. Live and learn I suppose.

So, my question is where on earth are folks finding hoses to use for this application? There has simply got to be source for quality hoses out there. At this point I just want a good quality set of hoses so that I don't ruin another set of tube seats.

Sadly, I have basically given up trying to find NOS or correct PN-stamped hoses. I just cannot find any...         Help? Source for decent hoses?

[WT8095]

the bluedot hoses have clearly visible seams down the length of the metal tubes. These unfinished seams cause the nuts to catch on them when you try to tighten them. Additionally, the tube seam continues into the flared end, thus creating a nice little path for power steering fluid to leak out.

The seam could very well be the problem. I addition to interfering radially with the nut, it may be preventing the flare from being evenly compressed against the seat.

One thing to remember: the nut is not intended to do any sealing. The flare and the seat by design will seal the pressure. If any fluid gets past to where the nut (the threads or around the tube) comes into play, the flare is not working properly. Never try to seal around the nut, and also do not use Teflon tape or sealer on the threads. You may or may not already be aware of that; I am reiterating it for folks who come across this thread at a later date.

Side note: did original Ford hoses use welded tube or seamless?

[67gtasanjose]

Side note: did original Ford hoses use welded tube or seamless?

I just looked at a pair of '67 original, assembly line, used "shortie" hoses. I see a line or scrape on the outside of the tubes that look like a seam, no discoloration though... but when looking inside the tubes, I see no sign of a seam. No sign of discoloration either. The line on the outside could be from tooling, flaring or shaping the line or it could be a weld. No easy answer

Richard

[WT8095]

No easy answer

There never is! And of course the tubing might vary by year, supplier, etc.

If we find situations where welded tubing was used and is visible on the OD, that might be another one of those fine details to try to replicate. 

[1967 eight barrel]

Angela:
There is only one person making the correct hoses. Rode's Restoration in Gallion, Oh. He is an engineer and has been doing it for about 45 years.
I bought his hoses (60.00 for the pair) and no more leaks. They have the EXACT bends and he stands behind his products.

[drummingrocks]

I believe NPD sells the tube seats separately now.  I'm pretty sure I saw them available in the power steering section of their newest catalog.

[Bob Gaines]

Angela:
There is only one person making the correct hoses. Rode's Restoration in Gallion, Oh. He is an engineer and has been doing it for about 45 years.
I bought his hoses (60.00 for the pair) and no more leaks. They have the EXACT bends and he stands behind his products.

Rodes hoses may have exact bends and may be made well from a engineering standpoint but sadly they do not look very close in other appearance nuances to factory OEM assemblyline hoses. I use have used Roger's rebuild services for decades but do not use his hoses only because I try and build to look like factory which takes me away from his very usable but not factory looking hoses.  I have used the blue dot hoses with success before and only assume that the inside seam path in the flare is a anomaly. I hope. I typical repurpose nice used hoses because the blue dot ones are only correct looking in appearance for later 68-70.They didn't want to go to the trouble of making two versions. That is the same route they took on a few others .The 67+68 style upper pressure hose comes to mind.   I see the used shortie hoses all of the time sold on ebay besides on original units in junk yards etc. Many survived in usable condition. I have several nice used sets of the 67/68 style in question however I will be traveling for the next week and will not have access to the hoses . If you can't find any by the time I get back PM me and I will try and help.