Author Topic: Compromises  (Read 4413 times)

Offline WT8095

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Compromises
« on: January 12, 2015, 09:56:33 PM »
Hi everyone,

I have a philosophical question. Not looking for an answer, as there probably isn't one. But it would be interesting to hear how other people feel about the subject.

The topic is "Compromises". I'm fairly obsessive-compulsive when it comes to preserving things and keeping them original. Not just cars, but lots of various objects that I end up with that have real or perceived "historical value". My dream when I started working on my Mustang 30 years ago was that it would be put back as absoutely perfectly close to the way it rolled off the assembly line as humanly possible. That included decals, paint codes, date codes, you name it. I even wonder about what type of brush was used to put the door codes on the driveshaft and springs. I don't care about judging, this is a personal quest to preserve a piece of history. Given that this is a concours forum dedicated to restoration, I suspect I'm not alone in my OCD, I see other people shooting for the same goals that I am. And that's intended as a complement.

As the years have gone by and not much has been done on my car (except for accumulating I'd say the majority of the driveline pieces I need), reality has set in to a certain degree. I'm not going to be able to achieve the level of perfection I dreamt of, which I can live with. But there's another aspect: what level SHOULD I try to achieve?

When I got my Mustang as a graduation gift 30 years ago, it had a perfectly good 200 CID six cylinder in it. It was (to me) a moderately nice-looking fastback, with a crummy red paint job and a damaged front fender and bumper. I planned to replace the broken parts, add a sunroof (I didn't!!!!!!) and drive it. However, having seen "Christine" I envisioned bringing the car up to a nicer quality level with nothing but elbow grease and some junkyard parts. Hopefully it wouldn't turn evil and start killing people, but that wasn't the highest priority on my list...

As I started learning more about the car, I found out that it was originally built with a 390, which the previous owner had sold. Dad and I tried tracking it down, but the trail had gone cold So we started looking for parts to piece one together. That led to many years of junkyard trips, swap meets, and shelves full of reasearch materials. All of which was very enjoyable.

So that gets me to thinking. I don't have, and never will have, the exact original engine and transmission and associated pieces that were priginally in the car. I've got exact duplicates, including correct date codes for some pieces. But they're not the same pieces that came off the line together in San Jose. I've got a number of other pieces, such a grille (well, five grilles...) that are in good original condition, but the original one is somewhat smashed. And some things like carpet, upholstery, and most of the rubber pieces, by necessity will have to be reproductions. Because of all of that, my viewpoint is changing a bit. Do I want a "perfect" car with all new shiny reproduction trim, etc, or would I be more satisfied with refurbished, i.e. replayed trim? Or is even that deviating from original? Should I find good, but flawed original pieces? Would going from "needs a lot of work" to essentially a car restored to survivor condition (how's that for a concept?) be more faithful? I still have to figure these things out.

That makes me start pondering other aspects. I like the original orange peel of factory paint, so I will likely try to go that route. But for some of the other pieces, especially driveline and suspension, what is more important - originality, or preservation? What I mean by that is, I don't have a temperature and humidity controlled storage facility. When my car is done, it will be driven. Only in the summer, of course, and maybe never in the rain if I can avoid it. But it will be driven. So parts that were originally bare metal, I don't want to leave bare metal because they will rust. I'd like to use clear coat or paints that simulate bare metal, which were not used by the factory and may appear slightly different, but as a tradeoff will be preserving the pieces better that they were originally protected. Same thing with coatings. I've been reading the forums to determine which engine paint(s) most closely resemble the original, but I also wonder if powder coating (or epoxy paint, etc.) might be a better choice for protection against wear from storage and occasional use. And while I was once thining of dipping the unibody to remove all traces of original paint, I'm now leaning towards paint removal on the exterior only, and leave all of the original factory paint & overspray & crayon markings and other sundries under the carpet and behind interior panels. They'll be preserved like they were when they rolled off the line, or more accurately the point to which they weathered by 1984.

That's the jumbled mess that's going on in my head right now. It's not a judgement of how anyone else approches their project, and I'm certainly not trying to start any arguments. Just trying to see if I'm the only one who's pondered these things  :)

One last item: while taking her apart, I immediately discovered why there was no paint code on the door plate: the paint was a special order color. Red fastbacks are pretty sweet, but I simply cannot bring myself to use anything but the original color.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 09:59:47 PM by WT8095 »
Dave Z.

'68 fastback, S-code + C6. Special Paint (Rainbow promotion), DSO 710784. Actual build date 2/7/1968, San Jose.
'69 Cougar convertible, 351W-2V + FMX, Meadowlark Yellow.

Offline Brian Conway

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Re: Compromises
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2015, 10:30:00 PM »
     No; I no longer " ponder " I much prefer to drive.  Brian
5RO9A GT  4 Spd Built 5/29/65
9TO2R SCJ 4 Spd Built 9/19/68
Owner Driver Mechanic
San Diego, Ca.

Offline markb0729

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Re: Compromises
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2015, 11:21:31 PM »
Hmmm...  Are you anticipating entering the car in an MCA Judged class or an AACA judged class?  If you have the patience, time and money, there are a lot of good people on this forum that can guide you along the way.  Lots of experience here that is priceless when doing a restoration.  What I have discovered during my restoration is that just about every piece on these cars has a story and should be fully researched before replacing or restoring.  You may have to use a repro parts here and there but it is what it is. 

In the worse way, this hobby can really play right into the hands of someone with OCD tendencies.  It can drive you crazy.  Do what you can do.  Don't drive yourself nuts.  For starters, don't worry about markings, you can do those later.  I've heard many MCA judges on this forum say that the absence of a marking does not necessarily qualify for a point deduction but an incorrect marking will guarantee a point deduction.  Take your time.

I'm a purist at heart but the big thing here is to have fun.  If you are not passionate and it's not enjoyable then what's the point?  Find another hobby.  My car is not going to be a perfect "off the assembly line restoration" but it will be darn close.  No orange peel in the paint for example, but it's my car and that's my decision.  Bottom line is that you do the car the way you want it.  If you do your research and use period correct used, NOS and reproduction parts your car will be a tribute to it's heritage.  The average person would not know the difference between a 100% original restored car and one restored with a mix of period and reproduction parts.  Don't over think it, have fun, learn and be a part of the community.  It's not all about the cars but the people too.  That's what it's all about IMHO.
65 Dearborn Built Fastback
Approximate Build Date, September 2, 1964
289 4V, C4, PS, PB, No A/C

Offline CharlesTurner

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Re: Compromises
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2015, 12:16:41 AM »
Common sense does not usually apply to folks that restore these cars.  If it makes you happy to restore the car to the highest level possible, then do it.  Although, realize that the pretty picture you've painted in your mind may not be achievable by your own hands.  Sometimes completion of a project is much more fulfilling than years of agony worrying that you have to do everything yourself.  Realize what your own capabilities are and hire professionals to do the rest.  The project may cost more in the long run, but I can guarantee you you'll be much happier looking at a completed project than lamenting over when you'll ever be finished.
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
Concours Mustang Forum Admin

Offline 69cobrajetrugae2

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Re: Compromises
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2015, 09:56:58 AM »
Mr WT, it is time to sell the car and move on with your life.  The car has become a burden.  You are in pain. I know because I have been there.

I sold a car a few years ago that I owned for 20 years and it was in the family for 30 years.  I have never regretted selling the car, not for a minute.

Every now and then I watch videos of her and look at pictures and wonder where she is and how she is doing, but I would never take her back.

The car ran great and was a original number 2 car. It was just, "time" to let her go.

What made it easy for me was the thrill and smiles on the face of the new owner.  It was clear to me that I made the right decision.

Now I have the Cobra Jet and have had a lot of fun with her.  But someday she will go to a new home as well, as the one before her did, and the one before that.

Women and cars are a man's weak spots.  I can't do much about the former, it's too expensive, but I certainly can control the latter.


Offline drummingrocks

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Re: Compromises
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2015, 09:59:23 AM »

One last item: while taking her apart, I immediately discovered why there was no paint code on the door plate: the paint was a special order color.

Were you able to figure out what the special paint color was?  Hopefully it wasn't something too obscure.

I will say, from my experience, if you're questioning this kind of thing at all right now, plan on keeping the original parts, no matter how busted, broken, or wasted, for at least 6 months after finishing the restoration.  I couldn't tell you how many times I've thrown something out and later wished I had it back for reference. 
Too much junk, too little time.

Offline WT8095

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Re: Compromises
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2015, 10:12:26 PM »
Were you able to figure out what the special paint color was?  Hopefully it wasn't something too obscure.

I will say, from my experience, if you're questioning this kind of thing at all right now, plan on keeping the original parts, no matter how busted, broken, or wasted, for at least 6 months after finishing the restoration.  I couldn't tell you how many times I've thrown something out and later wished I had it back for reference.

It took a bit to track down the color. For a long time I thought it was a '67 color, Turquoise Frost. When I got my Marti report, I sent Kevin a turn signal housing that had a significant amount of the original color, and he matched it to WT8095 (hence my sig), which is an aquamarine that was selected by a number of dealers in the Rainbow Of Colors promotion on the west coast. I hadn't heard of that promotion previously. John Klein's MustangAttitude.com site has a lot of detail on it. When I first uncovered the original color, I was not exactly enthusiastic about it. Then Dad and I visited a guy nearby who was restoring a 68-1/2 Cobra Jet, and the unibody had just been freshly sprayed in a color very close. It was breathtaking, and I knew on the spot it would be a mistake to go with any other color.

No need for alarm, I will not be disposing of anything that came off the car, unless it was clearly not original (the ca. 1980 Sears-Roebuck digital speed control, for example). I have no choice, I think it's a congenital condition :)
Dave Z.

'68 fastback, S-code + C6. Special Paint (Rainbow promotion), DSO 710784. Actual build date 2/7/1968, San Jose.
'69 Cougar convertible, 351W-2V + FMX, Meadowlark Yellow.

Offline WT8095

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Re: Compromises
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2015, 10:43:00 PM »
I think my original post rambled a bit too much and did not clearly get across what I was hoping to see. Bluntly, I'm not trying to solicit advice on what approach to take on my project. What I would really like to hear is the decisions the rest of you made on your own projects regarding what constitutes restoration and preservation, and how you ultimately implemented those decisions. I have two goals in presenting the topic: 1) to start what should be a fascinating conversation and 2) to get a bigger set of viewpoints, from which I will make my own decision on how to proceed.

Also, I fear my story may have come across as a bit of a downer, which is not really the case. While I do regret that I haven't made much progress over the years, I have learned quite a few things over that time that will ultimately lead to a more satisfying conclusion. The biggest realization is that I took on too many other projects that distracted me from THE one project (talking selfish projects here - the house and family take a higher priority of course) that I truly care about. So I have been divesting myself of those projects, car-related and otherwise, and digging into acquiring more parts and tools and making some actual progress. I'm more excited about it than I have been in a long time, and I'm going to start stripping and painting some of the smaller pieces in the next couple of months. Which is why I've been thinking about my exact approach lately - I need to start making decisions soon.
Dave Z.

'68 fastback, S-code + C6. Special Paint (Rainbow promotion), DSO 710784. Actual build date 2/7/1968, San Jose.
'69 Cougar convertible, 351W-2V + FMX, Meadowlark Yellow.

Offline jwc66k

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Re: Compromises
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2015, 12:07:46 AM »
A simple solution is, although it may get expensive, it to have more than one Mustang, one for "show" and one for "go". My 66 "K" code GT Fastback, Pony interior, is my "show", I have a 66 "A" code hardtop that gets the AM/FM CD player with the 4 speakers, added on dual exhausts, 67 Style Steel Wheels (they're wider) with Cooper radials, Fog lights, Pony seats, hump hugger console over the stock console, for "go" - well you get the idea. This multiple car scenario can go overboard as I also have a 65 GT Fastback in the garage. It's been featured in 8 different calendars, that's why I keep it. In the interim, I've had a 66 GT Fastback that I used for "restoration practice" then sold to pay for the others after I went as far as I could or wanted.
Jim
I promise to be politically correct in all my posts to keep the BBBB from vociferating.

Offline CharlesTurner

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Re: Compromises
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2015, 11:39:49 AM »
I'll admit your first post was a bit wordy and I didn't read it thoroughly, but I went back and now understand what your quandary is.  Being that the car is special order paint, it does seem that at least some of that should be preserved.  My approach to that would be to evaluate areas of the car from a preservation perspective and see how much could be saved as-is.  If you're looking at a large percentage of the car that really needs to be restored, then I would go with restoration.  Although, maybe the top of the dash where there is usually some nice original paint could be preserved and not stripped.  It might be best to post some pics of how the car currently looks to get some input on what is the best direction to take.

In regards to putting used parts on the car, in my opinion, that will be very tough to get to look right.  In other words, matching patina of unrestored pieces will most likely not work out as you've envisioned.  There are so many variables at play when considering assembly plant practices, parts used, changes made during production year, etc...

As far as finishes to apply or not apply, believe if you do more reading here on the forum, you will find that most of us that have gone down the road of restoring as original find it easier to maintain correct finishes than parts that are clear coated or faux appearance paints used.  If you're a stickler for originality as you've mentioned in your posts, then I can't see how you will ever be happy with any faux paints or worse, powder coating.  With proper metal coating products, original finishes can be preserved and touched up easily if needed.

One other thing that I noticed from your post is you seem a little disappointed that you don't have the original drive-train.  I agree that would be a bit of a downer, but realize that motors were assembled from stockpiled parts.  If you've done your homework and bought all the correct engineering number and date coded pieces, you've done the best you can.  I doubt anyone will fault you for that.  A special order paint 390 fastback stands tall just on those merits.  People do not need to be told about the motor unless you decide to tell them.

Hope this helps in some way.
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
Concours Mustang Forum Admin

Offline WT8095

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Re: Compromises
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2015, 10:39:25 PM »
One other thing that I noticed from your post is you seem a little disappointed that you don't have the original drive-train.

Yes, but only a tiny bit. I am putting together a nice 390 with original parts, which will be perfectly fine. Some of the date codes will be correct (I scored a beautiful carb with a nice orignal tag, and the date code is right on), but not all of them and that's OK. Just got a heat shield and snorkel today. The heat shield is a little pitted, and I will have to replace one corner that is essentially a narrow "washer" of material where it is bolted to the manifold. It won't be as perfect as a repo (not sure if they're even being reproduced). Then all I have to do is decided on the finish - stick close to original type paint, or use something more durable. Again, not asking for advice or suggestions, but I am interested to hear stories of what other people are doing. That would be more helpful in making my decisions.

My point about not having the original drivetrain was mostly just a philosophical musing - where are the lines between restoration, preservation, reproduction, etc? Exhaust manifolds would be a good example. Leaving them bare metal is more representative of how they left the factory, but if the car is driven or even exposed to humidity, they will rust and deteriorate. If they are painted or ceramic coated, the appearance will not be correct, but ultimately they will be better preserved. A purist may even argue that cleaning and refinishing with original coatings is not conserving the original (for example, cleaning coins and refinishing antique firearms are widely frowned upon in those circles).

For the most part, I already have a pretty good idea on how I'm going to proceed, and it will be a mix of approaches on a piece-by piece basis. It's interesting to see how that direction has shifted a bit as I've gotten older, learned more, and compared notes with others. And there's a select few pieces that I will wrestle with until the day I need to bolt something onto the car, or don't bolt it on. Like the beautiful original, unused transverse muffler I ran across in about 1988 - has the engineering number (not a service part number, either) stamped in, no crimp marks on the pipes, etc. Pretty sure I will never be able to bring myself to install it, so I'll use repro instead. And no, it's not for sale :)
Dave Z.

'68 fastback, S-code + C6. Special Paint (Rainbow promotion), DSO 710784. Actual build date 2/7/1968, San Jose.
'69 Cougar convertible, 351W-2V + FMX, Meadowlark Yellow.