Topic: Question of freeing stuck 428

[jwc66k]

No, if you read reply #8 you'll see I am not looking for a shortcut and I DO intend to remove and rebuild the engine. However, it's going to be some time before I can do so and for now I merely wanted to see if I could get the engine free and keep it that way. I thought this forum would be a great way to get some advice as to whether or not other folks have had any success with such exercises. I wouldn't take a shortcut with a rare and difficult to replace engine. :-)

I yield to the superior intellect.
Jim

[Bob Gaines]

I yield to the superior intellect.
Jim

[69cobrajetrugae2]

Just curious Angela.  What kind of Ford do you have?  Did you drive it last?  A little history on the car would be nice.

If it is a CJ or PI 428 take it apart. Any other 428 is not worth that much, less sentimental value.

Using a crowbar on the flywheel will likely cause damage. Using the crank nut or a fresh starter can likely cause damage as well. Several hundred foot pounds of torque is multiplied to the component which is seized. Rods can bend and pistons can break, not to mention a valve which is stuck open can strike a piston.

 Using a bore scope as suggested is a great idea. I acquired my bore scope at harbor freight. However, the bore scope won't tell you for sure what your problem is.

If is a standard 428 You might try installing the plugs and pouring ATF down the carburetor until it the carburetor is topped off. Let it sit for a month. Then remove the plugs and the rocker shafts. If all the valves close, then reinstall the rocker shafts. Then give a tug on the spanner wrench as you initially did.  If it is still locked the engine is bad. If it rotates get it running.  It might run great for years and you saved yourself thousands of dollars.
 

[67gtasanjose]

Using a crowbar on the flywheel will likely cause damage. Using the crank nut or a fresh starter can likely cause damage as well. Several hundred foot pounds of torque is multiplied to the component which is seized. Rods can bend and pistons can break, not to mention a valve which is stuck open can strike a piston.

Correct, and if the force is going downward, way from the seized rings/pistons, NEVER have I bent a rod or damaged a a usable component using this method. The purpose of my method is only for disassembling of an otherwise "considered junk" engine to evaluate any and all damage for rebuilding it.  But as I have heard before...

I yield to the superior intellect.
Jim

[Smokey 15]

 After filling the cylinders with a 50/50 mix of trans fluid/toluol I have removed two bolts, across from each other, from the flexplate/flywheel and replaced them with longer bolts (8 grade). I then used them to put a lever (prybar) between to help turn the engine. You can go either way without damaging flexplate/flywheel teeth. If no flywheel/flexplate, you can install the bolts in the crankshaft.

[Mike_B_SVT]

Hmm... have you considered removing the oil pan and taking a look inside from below?  Maybe aside from the posibility of rusty rings/pistons/cylinder, there could be a thrown rod or something of the sort physically wedged in there preventing the engine from moving?

Just a thought.

Besides, you know you really want to see the inside of that engine :-)

[Angela]

FYI / Update:

After letting the mystery marvel oil sit in the cylinders for a month I came back and gave 'er another try with the breaker bar at the crank pulley. Nothing; she wouldn't budge. So, with help, I yanked the 428 & transmission out of the car, separated the transmission from the block and put the engine on a stand. While trying to remove the flywheel, we noticed the engine now turns over... with relative ease! Turns out, it's the transmission that won't turn.... but the 428 turns over just fine. It has excellent compression on all cylinders except 2 & 8. So weird, I've never encountered a situation with an automatic trans wherein the transmission could keep you from turing the engine over by hand. Shouldn't the torque converter always disconnect the engine and trans? I don't understand this at all.... but at least I now know the engine is in much better shape than I thought.

If anyone understands how a locked-up automatic trans could prohibit an engine from turning over, please, please educate me. :-)

[67gtasanjose]

The most likely way the transmission is the problem is if somebody force-bolted the two together without indexing the pump.

This is what I know about torque converters and transmission pumps and related input shafts:
1.) The "flat sides" on the tube sticking out of the torque converter index into the transmission pump.
2.)  The smaller splined shaft connects to the moving parts inside the transmission
3.) The larger splined shaft remains stationary and works the inner parts of the torque converter (by using the engine rotation)

Basically, if the two flats were not aligned with the flats of the pump sprocket, they did not insert the torque converter correctly and "forced" the bellhousing bolts in. If this is true, the front pump is destroyed on the transmission. Seen this a couple dozen times when amateurs change out transmissions, regardless if it is a Ford or not.

Richard

[drummingrocks]

Basically, if the two flats were not aligned with the flats of the pump sprocket, they did not insert the torque converter correctly and "forced" the bellhousing bolts in. If this is true, the front pump is destroyed on the transmission. Seen this a couple dozen times when amateurs change out transmissions, regardless if it is a Ford or not.

Richard

+1.  If that's what happened, the pump is destroyed.  Like Richard said, it's a common mistake and an easy one to make your first time changing out an automatic.

[Angela]

Thanks guys. It sounds like you're telling me someone had previously removed my transmission and reinstalled the torque converter incorrectly. And you're saying that in doing so, the net effect is (a) a destroyed pump and (b) it would be impossible to turn the engine over when this happens? I completely do not understand how this stops the engine from being able to turn over. I thought that without sufficient RPM, the converter allows the engine to free-wheel with respect to the transmission. It appears I have much to learn. :-)

[67gtasanjose]

Thanks guys. It sounds like you're telling me someone had previously removed my transmission and reinstalled the torque converter incorrectly. And you're saying that in doing so, the net effect is (a) a destroyed pump and (b) it would be impossible to turn the engine over when this happens? I completely do not understand how this stops the engine from being able to turn over. I thought that without sufficient RPM, the converter allows the engine to free-wheel with respect to the transmission. It appears I have much to learn. :-)

3-dimensional thinking needs applied to this picture. When the pump did not index the converter, the internal sprockets of the transmission pump would be forced against the housing in which they operate by the pressure created using the bellhousing bolts to force the transmission case to mate against the cylinder block~Net result, an incredible amount of friction inside the pump cavity of the transmission and against the main bearings of the engine. It seems clear as mud to me