Author Topic: Question of freeing stuck 428  (Read 7069 times)

Offline Angela

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Question of freeing stuck 428
« on: January 01, 2015, 05:12:02 PM »
I'm attempting to free a 428 that's been sitting for a couple decades and doesn't feel like turning over for me. I don't see any obvious signs it sat outside or ingested water (no rust in either valve train or inside the intake manifold...the distributor shaft spins freely...etc). I removed the plugs (they looked good...no rust) and injected a liberal amount of penetrating fluid, let is sit overnight and applied some generous (but not herculean) torque to the dampener bolt using a 30" breaker bar. No movement.

Now I have filled all eight cylinders with marvel mystery oil and am letting it sit. My question is whether or not there is a better way to apply some torque to the crank to attempt to break free the pistons. Specifically, I am afraid to put too much torque on the dampener bolt because I don't want to break the bolt off. Looks like the torque spec on the dampener bolt is 70-90 ft*lbs and I suspect I could create much more than that with my breaker bar.

Just looking for advice....tips....tricks....

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Question of freeing stuck 428
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2015, 06:56:29 PM »
Assuming you are dealing with rust/corrosion, you are off to a good start by letting it sit at least overnight. 2nd, if it is frozen that badly, most likely everything internal on at least one cylinder will have significant pitting of rust. If you can get an arthroscopic camera into the spark plug holes to look (better if you hadn't yet filled with Marvel) you might be able to focus on the problem cylinder(s) If the Marvel is seaping down overnight (past the rings) those cylinders are probably causing less of the issues. The ones that do not seap down obviously are. The rings will likely be seized to the piston grooves, pitting on the valves and valve seats and so on. You might plan to pull the engine out to take it apart enough at least for inspection of these items EVEN IF YOU GET IT TO TURN OVER somehow. I have freed up very many engines in the past so this is not just speaking out of thoughts alone.

The best way I know of to get leverage to turn over a stuck engine requires clear access to the flywheel ring gear. Most of the time the most stubborn of frozen engines will budge some one way or the other if you can get a fulcrum off of one of the bellhousing bolts and a large pry bar into a flywheel tooth. Once it begins to turn over, depending how many pistons are stuck, it gets easier as you can move it back and forth and eventually will make it's way all the way around.

Even after it now goes all the way around, you may be looking at significant compression loss at the rings and valves so starting it up may be a problem. Every engine that has been frozen (from rust, not other failures) can and most likely not run right because of the corrosion damage but at least it will be easier once free  to take it apart.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 09:44:18 AM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Question of freeing stuck 428
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2015, 07:44:09 PM »
Have you pulled the heads?  If not that would be  were I would start. Then apply the oil around the edges of the pistons and with the wooden handle of a hammer tap on each piston. Do this a number of times over a number of days and try again.

If I had to - next pull the crank and work each cylinder individually rather than all the pistons at once
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline sgl66

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Re: Question of freeing stuck 428
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2015, 09:00:15 PM »
...the distributor shaft spins freely...

The distributor "shaft" should not spin if the crank doesn't. Did you mean the distributor "body" as if you were adjusting the timing? If you did mean the shaft, chances are high that the engine lost oil and possibly explain why you can't turn it over.

Is the engine in or out of the car? If it is in, is it a 4 speed or auto?
66 GT 6T09K12---- scheduled Oct 14, bucked Oct 13 '65

Offline Angela

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Re: Question of freeing stuck 428
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2015, 10:26:53 PM »
Thanks for the help guys!

Interesting comment on using the ring gear to turn the engine over. I would not have thought one could get enough leverage from those little tiny gears and a pry bar. Hmmmmmm....

Jeff, no, I haven't yet pulled the heads but if after some time with the Mystery Marvel oil sitting in the cylinders she still won't turn, pulling the heads will be next.

sgibbs, I meant to say the distributor body turns.... I haven't tried turning the distributor shaft, although I had wondered about attempting to turn the oil pump with a long 1/4" extension. Engine is still in the car, but barely (i.e. mostly unhooked). Auto.

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Question of freeing stuck 428
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2015, 10:45:43 PM »


Interesting comment on using the ring gear to turn the engine over. I would not have thought one could get enough leverage from those little tiny gears and a pry bar. Hmmmmmm....



Actually you get quite an enormous amount of leverage this way. Out of 20 or so engines I have freed up or changed after they locked up for various reasons, this technique rarely fails. Even more rare that you would actually break off a tooth in the flywheel (but I have, so make sure you have a good deep bite on the tooth with the bar)

Easiest way to get leverage is off of the lowermost bellhousing bolt location, (bellhousing removed) and just a bellhousing bolt screwed back into that hole in the block (bottomed out loosely) Leverage off of the bolt with the pry bar. You should be able to go both ways, back and forth and the oil should assist in freeing up the rust.

I have to now wonder about Evaporust and patience? I am using some these days on my wheels and cannot help wonder if it wouldn't hurt here either...just this obviously hasn't been tried  ;)
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 10:50:24 PM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline sgl66

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Re: Question of freeing stuck 428
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2015, 10:47:10 PM »

sgibbs, I meant to say the distributor body turns.... I haven't tried turning the distributor shaft, although I had wondered about attempting to turn the oil pump with a long 1/4" extension. Engine is still in the car, but barely (i.e. mostly unhooked). Auto.
Thats good to hear that you turned body not the shaft.

If you have a 4 speed, and the trans and differential are still connected, try putting it in 1st and rocking the car. Watch the balancer to see if it turns. If it still won't move, or you have an automatic, I would try what 67gta and jeff are suggesting.
66 GT 6T09K12---- scheduled Oct 14, bucked Oct 13 '65

Offline 69cobrajetrugae2

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Re: Question of freeing stuck 428
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2015, 08:48:47 AM »
Did the car run before?

Marvel mystery oil is just transmission fluid with a little pale oil and alcohol added.  It is unlikely to eat enough corrosion to free the engine in a short period of time. As another guy said, if the engine does manage to run, considerable damage may result. Valves might hit pistons, rings could break or the corrosion might score the cylinder walls. If you care about the engine, a compete overhaul is necessary before you try to turn it over.

If you want to get it running, liquid wrench is the best. I would fill the cylinders with liquid wrench using a leak down tester spark plug adapter. As you fill the cylinders, it will enter the open valves and run out the exhaust valves to the tailpipe or start to fill the intake manifold.  Once you flood all eight cylinders then I would wait a month and try again. The engine didn't seize overnight, and it is unlikely to free up overnight without considerable damage. Good luck.

Offline Angela

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Re: Question of freeing stuck 428
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2015, 09:42:23 AM »
I agree the engine isn't going to free up overnight... I'll let it sit for a while with the cylinders flooded with oil. I should have mentioned that in addition to the mystery marvel oil I flooded each cylinder with, I injected an entire 20oz can of liquid wrench and a 12oz can of PB blaster (divided somewhat equally across all 8 cylinders).

I also agree that a complete rebuild is required and that's my plan. I just wanted to see if I could free it up before the tear down begins, but I would never attempt to start and run it this way. I won't be able to begin the rebuild for quite some time, thus I thought I'd at least attempt to get the engine turning again. For now, it doesn't hurt anything to leave it sitting with the cylinders flooded with oil.

I'd like to try the pry-bar technique at the flywheel, but it sounds like I need to have removed the transmission first, so I guess that experiment will have to wait.

Thanks for the advice!

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Question of freeing stuck 428
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2015, 12:51:08 PM »


I'd like to try the pry-bar technique at the flywheel, but it sounds like I need to have removed the transmission first, so I guess that experiment will have to wait.

Thanks for the advice!
You MIGHT be able to get a good bite on the teeth with only removing the inspection cover but keep in mind you wish to have a "deep" bite into the flywheel tooth. A bar with a bent end might help to get a straight-on angle. Good luck!
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Question of freeing stuck 428
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2015, 05:36:26 PM »
Wondering ( out loud ;)   what Evapo rust would do in each cylinder.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 05:41:02 PM by J_Speegle »
Jeff Speegle

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Offline 69cobrajetrugae2

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Re: Question of freeing stuck 428
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2015, 05:46:20 PM »
Why risk damage? Even engines that sit for years then start and run can be short lived.

Offline jwc66k

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Re: Question of freeing stuck 428
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2015, 05:50:45 PM »
You're looking for a short cut that does not exist. Pull the engine and do it right.
Jim
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Offline Angela

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Re: Question of freeing stuck 428
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2015, 07:40:53 PM »
You're looking for a short cut that does not exist. Pull the engine and do it right.
Jim

No, if you read reply #8 you'll see I am not looking for a shortcut and I DO intend to remove and rebuild the engine. However, it's going to be some time before I can do so and for now I merely wanted to see if I could get the engine free and keep it that way. I thought this forum would be a great way to get some advice as to whether or not other folks have had any success with such exercises. I wouldn't take a shortcut with a rare and difficult to replace engine. :-)

Offline 67gtasanjose

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Re: Question of freeing stuck 428
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2015, 09:18:45 AM »
No, if you read reply #8 you'll see I am not looking for a shortcut and I DO intend to remove and rebuild the engine. However, it's going to be some time before I can do so and for now I merely wanted to see if I could get the engine free and keep it that way. I thought this forum would be a great way to get some advice as to whether or not other folks have had any success with such exercises. I wouldn't take a shortcut with a rare and difficult to replace engine. :-)

Personally, I think it is a good idea to get the engine freed up before storing it longer. A real good idea. Maybe you can find just one cylinder with a problem as I often have before, and just maybe you can do it without pulling the engine. Now, since the rarity of good engines is more so today, I am not suggesting you should follow this path (below) exactly, but it might give you some ideas.

I'll give you my first example of a frozen FE 390, I bought at a junkyard for $25 (circa 1974) as a core. It only had about 30K miles so felt it a good engine and worth the risk of the $25.

First (after it was taken out of the vehicle) it was freed up using the method with the flywheel.  Looking at the plugs and using a flashlight, we discovered that only one cylinder had an issue. It only took about 15 minutes to get it going all the way around after setting overnight with the oil. (we used ATF fluid) BTW, this is common that only one cylinder might have an issue because usually, only the cylinder(s) with open valves will get moisture on the cylinder walls. This applies mostly to engines not directly out in the elements (like this first example I am writing about)  After freeing it up, we had already filled all the cylinders with the ATF, we spun it over with all the plugs removed using the starter for a minute or so. Then (while the engine was out) preceded to get ignition and fuel to the engine and started it up. A compression test afterwards revealed the one cylinder that had the rust on the spark plug, was very low.  We pulled the head and sent it to a machine shop to have the valves ground on that head and noticed some pitting still on the cylinder wall. (piston positioned all the way down) We cleaned the cylinder as best we could, and after the report from the machine shop that a new valve seat was needed, we ended up exchanging out that head, put it back on and and ran another  compression test. We ended up getting only about 80 lbs while the others mostly where well over 125 lbs. We felt it would improve over time so then put it into the pickup truck we needed the engine for. BTW, that engine lasted the life of that pickup (about 75K miles over 3 or 4 years) but it never got the compression to come all the way back up on that cylinder.

Summary, every frozen engine is damaged. Some are worse than others but ALL can be freed up. Freed up does not mean reusable (some are extremely damaged) In the later 70's I began rebuilding engines for resale. I purchased MANY frozen engines and freed up and saved almost every block. I found that kerosene or diesel fuel was a good solvent for the soaking. The method Jeff mentioned is one way but honestly, the flywheel seemed to work better most of the time. Once I had an Internatonal truck engine I couldn't get free with the flywheel. I pulled the crank and tried the way Jeff mentioned. End result was a destroyed piston and a cracked block. It was however frozen from being out in the elements and probably not savable in the first place.

Richard
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 09:41:34 AM by 67gtasanjose »
Richard Urch

1967 (11/2/66, S.J.) GTA Luxury Coupe, 289-4V w/Thermactor Emissions, C-4, Int./Ext. Decor +many options

2005 (04/05) GT Premium Convertible, Windveil Blue, Parchment Top w/Med. Parchment interior,  Roush Body Appointments