Author Topic: Rear Spring  (Read 5017 times)

Offline Stangly

  • Gold Level Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 390
Rear Spring
« on: February 14, 2014, 12:07:14 AM »

Is this additional support on the spring original. I'm thinking this is an aftermarket add on, can anybody confirm.

68 J-Code
Automatic

Thanks,
David,

69 Sports Roof 302 2V (numbers matching)
Dearborn (June build date) Acapulco Blue
68 Coupe J-Code
San Jose (June build date) Sea Foam Green
2001 V6 Laser Red
2015 GT Deep Impact Blue

Offline krelboyne

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1223
    • West Coast Classic Cougars
Re: Rear Spring
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2014, 12:46:49 AM »
Helper spring, not original.
Scott Behncke - Carcheaologist
West Coast Classic Cougars
503-463-1130
1968 GT/CS 302-4V San Jose 05B
1968 Cougar XR7 Dearborn 09A

Offline J_Speegle

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24628
Re: Rear Spring
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 12:53:04 AM »
Yes the always popular  :( helper spring. Sold at your Sears, Monkey Wards and alignment shops over the last 40 plus years
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline Stangly

  • Gold Level Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 390
Re: Rear Spring
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2014, 09:06:23 AM »
Were these put on because the springs were worn out.  Should I be looking at replacing them or having them re-arched.
69 Sports Roof 302 2V (numbers matching)
Dearborn (June build date) Acapulco Blue
68 Coupe J-Code
San Jose (June build date) Sea Foam Green
2001 V6 Laser Red
2015 GT Deep Impact Blue

Offline J_Speegle

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24628
Re: Rear Spring
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2014, 01:21:28 PM »
Added to allow for additional weight and can help raise the ride height. Would expect that you will find that you'll need to do some work there. Keep your short spring if you choose to replace the others since its the one that is marked and dated ;)
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline Stangly

  • Gold Level Subscriber
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 390
Re: Rear Spring
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2014, 09:31:58 PM »
Will do Jeff thanks for the help guys, I really appreciate it.
69 Sports Roof 302 2V (numbers matching)
Dearborn (June build date) Acapulco Blue
68 Coupe J-Code
San Jose (June build date) Sea Foam Green
2001 V6 Laser Red
2015 GT Deep Impact Blue

Offline 68 S Code

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Rear Spring
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2014, 09:18:49 PM »
So if I have original springs what would you suggest. Having new ones made by Eaton (?) and having them just add the original short leaf. I'm afraid the originals will just droop the entire rear of the car. My problem to date has been the coating that the new ones come in and also I don't know if the straps are even close to original. But this is one of the last pieces I need to refinish and install. I would add the original rear shocks then as well.

Offline J_Speegle

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24628
Re: Rear Spring
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2014, 09:35:54 PM »
So if I have original springs what would you suggest. Having new ones made by Eaton (?) and having them just add the original short leaf. I'm afraid the originals will just droop the entire rear of the car...........

What state is the car in?  Together, all or part apart?  If fairly together I might install them before refinishing them to see if they need replacing. Did you notice any sagging before you took the car apart or are you assuming they are weak?   

Just looking for a starting point
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline 67gta289

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3080
Re: Rear Spring
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2014, 10:26:18 PM »
So if I have original springs what would you suggest. Having new ones made by Eaton (?) and having them just add the original short leaf. I'm afraid the originals will just droop the entire rear of the car. My problem to date has been the coating that the new ones come in and also I don't know if the straps are even close to original. But this is one of the last pieces I need to refinish and install. I would add the original rear shocks then as well.

As far as Eaton goes, the good news is that the clamps are dead on.  I bought the accurate repros but the Eatons were 99% the same.

The bad news is that the Eaton springs are not close to original when you compare them side by side.  The ends of the leafs don't taper in thickness, they are pretty much the same gauge all the way to the end.  The end profiles are almost squared off, not cut at angles.  Also the bottom leafs don't have the pressed in humps.  See the pictures below.

The claim that they have the original blueprints sounds a bit fishy.  If they do, they may be adhering to the fundamental design parameters (spring rates, key dimensions required for installation, etc., but certainly not to the "look".   But other than NOS which is hard to find, what option do we have?  I'm concerned as well about reusing the bottom leaf.  Eaton suggests not to do it. We all know that the Mustangs had a natural saggy rear end.  Reusing any of the spring that is 50 years old, and under load, certainly won't help in the sag department.
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
7R02C156xxx
MCA 74660

Offline Bob Gaines

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 9362
Re: Rear Spring
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2014, 11:00:22 PM »
As far as Eaton goes, the good news is that the clamps are dead on.  I bought the accurate repros but the Eatons were 99% the same.

The bad news is that the Eaton springs are not close to original when you compare them side by side.  The ends of the leafs don't taper in thickness, they are pretty much the same gauge all the way to the end.  The end profiles are almost squared off, not cut at angles.  Also the bottom leafs don't have the pressed in humps.  See the pictures below.

The claim that they have the original blueprints sounds a bit fishy.  If they do, they may be adhering to the fundamental design parameters (spring rates, key dimensions required for installation, etc., but certainly not to the "look".   But other than NOS which is hard to find, what option do we have?  I'm concerned as well about reusing the bottom leaf.  Eaton suggests not to do it. We all know that the Mustangs had a natural saggy rear end.  Reusing any of the spring that is 50 years old, and under load, certainly won't help in the sag department.
I am sorry but your concern about the bottom spring seems a little misplaced. I don't have to be a engineer to know that the short bottom leaf in itself is not going to make any noticeable difference ride height wise or safety wise. Certainly some out of the ordinary circumstance could cause the thick spring steel to crack or something but there is always a off the wall chance of a asteroid to strike too.  Just my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 11:04:07 PM by Bob Gaines »
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline 67gta289

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3080
Re: Rear Spring
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2014, 07:14:30 AM »
As an engineer, I respectfully disagree.  Without appropriate calculations validated by controlled testing, our four cents (your two and my two) are as valuable as...four cents.

Since the data is not at hand, we stray from the "school of engineering" to the "streets of opinioneering".  And the streets can be dangerous.  Lots of potholes.

If the bottom leaf does not affect ride height, or safety, appreciably, don't you think that Ford would be tempted to use the exact same leaf on every car, and move the part number stamp up to the next spring?  Either that or don't you think that Ford would be just a little tempted to leave them out?  Especially moving into 1968 as many items were cut for cost?

I've designed components that went into production for Ford and GM.  The bottom line is that once you leave the aesthetics arena, there is nothing put in there that was not required from an engineering perspective.  It's all about cost vs. performance/safety.  I'm not exaggerating - we would literally sit in a conference room reviewing a design and go after the removal of one 10K resistor.  I remember the boss saying that "a resistor in bulk cost is $0.72, the axial insertion machine costs $0.12 to install each component, the wave soldering machine...".  It all added up to, believe it or not, about 2 cents.  It might be hard to believe, but two pennies are sought after with volumes of 500K and up.

With some things, you can go overboard with your safety factor and have little to no consequence.  Take an elevated deck on a house.  "X" number of 4x4 posts will work just fine.  But to be safe you increase "X" by 25% and increase the post size to 6x6.  Given the total cost of the job, the small increase in cost is worth it so that you have peace of mind.  The design is such that the additional support does not hurt anything or anyone.  When you are on the deck with family and friends, people will talk about the nice look, the nice view, etc.  But nobody will notice the extra support.

But the thing with springs is that there are some big negatives if you go overboard with your safety factor.  Consider the F350 with additional spring capacity to handle a fifth wheel trailer.  Then drive down a bumpy road with no load.  Not a pleasant ride.

The fact that there are what, 4, 5, or 6 different springs used for each model year (engine size, body style, handling package) should tell us that the rear springs need to be tuned carefully.  Otherwise one version would do.  And Ford would save a lot.

We all know that most Mustangs sagged.  There are many old black and whites and Polaroid's that confirm it.  And since this was true when new, the engineers are certainly the ones to blame.

My point was simply this: if you take a new spring, and substitute even the weakest (smallest) leaf with a used one that was loaded for 40+ years, the overall capacity will be lower. Not the same, and not higher.  That is common sense.

Will that decreased capacity, of unknown engineering units, result in a noticeable difference?  Like a tootsie pop, the world may never know. 

Notice that neither in this nor in the previous post did I say that it would be lower or less safe.  I'm just pointing out the concern.  And I stand by that concern. 
John
67 289 GTA Dec 20 1966 San Jose
7R02C156xxx
MCA 74660

Offline 68 S Code

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Rear Spring
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2014, 11:29:47 PM »
Jeff in my instance the car is together but the original springs have been off the car since 85. Hard for me to remember but it only sat level because of some shakles if I remember that far back. I believe the cars when new had a bit of droop in the rear from the factory. It was just a styling thing wasn't it? I've looked at some promo material and thats the impression I had. Not until 69-70 did the cars have a level or even mild rake to them.

Offline Bob Gaines

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 9362
Re: Rear Spring
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2014, 11:36:16 PM »
As an engineer, I respectfully disagree.  Without appropriate calculations validated by controlled testing, our four cents (your two and my two) are as valuable as...four cents.

Since the data is not at hand, we stray from the "school of engineering" to the "streets of opinioneering".  And the streets can be dangerous.  Lots of potholes.

If the bottom leaf does not affect ride height, or safety, appreciably, don't you think that Ford would be tempted to use the exact same leaf on every car, and move the part number stamp up to the next spring?  Either that or don't you think that Ford would be just a little tempted to leave them out?  Especially moving into 1968 as many items were cut for cost?

I've designed components that went into production for Ford and GM.  The bottom line is that once you leave the aesthetics arena, there is nothing put in there that was not required from an engineering perspective.  It's all about cost vs. performance/safety.  I'm not exaggerating - we would literally sit in a conference room reviewing a design and go after the removal of one 10K resistor.  I remember the boss saying that "a resistor in bulk cost is $0.72, the axial insertion machine costs $0.12 to install each component, the wave soldering machine...".  It all added up to, believe it or not, about 2 cents.  It might be hard to believe, but two pennies are sought after with volumes of 500K and up.

With some things, you can go overboard with your safety factor and have little to no consequence.  Take an elevated deck on a house.  "X" number of 4x4 posts will work just fine.  But to be safe you increase "X" by 25% and increase the post size to 6x6.  Given the total cost of the job, the small increase in cost is worth it so that you have peace of mind.  The design is such that the additional support does not hurt anything or anyone.  When you are on the deck with family and friends, people will talk about the nice look, the nice view, etc.  But nobody will notice the extra support.

But the thing with springs is that there are some big negatives if you go overboard with your safety factor.  Consider the F350 with additional spring capacity to handle a fifth wheel trailer.  Then drive down a bumpy road with no load.  Not a pleasant ride.

The fact that there are what, 4, 5, or 6 different springs used for each model year (engine size, body style, handling package) should tell us that the rear springs need to be tuned carefully.  Otherwise one version would do.  And Ford would save a lot.

We all know that most Mustangs sagged.  There are many old black and whites and Polaroid's that confirm it.  And since this was true when new, the engineers are certainly the ones to blame.

My point was simply this: if you take a new spring, and substitute even the weakest (smallest) leaf with a used one that was loaded for 40+ years, the overall capacity will be lower. Not the same, and not higher.  That is common sense.

Will that decreased capacity, of unknown engineering units, result in a noticeable difference?  Like a tootsie pop, the world may never know. 

Notice that neither in this nor in the previous post did I say that it would be lower or less safe.  I'm just pointing out the concern.  And I stand by that concern.
Man take a pill.
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline J_Speegle

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24628
Re: Rear Spring
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2014, 11:38:39 PM »
Jeff in my instance the car is together but the original springs have been off the car since 85. Hard for me to remember but it only sat level because of some shakles if I remember that far back. I believe the cars when new had a bit of droop in the rear from the factory. It was just a styling thing wasn't it? I've looked at some promo material and thats the impression I had. Not until 69-70 did the cars have a level or even mild rake to them.

Others would describe the 67-68 and being high in the front rather than low in the rear ;)

Guess I'm just uncomfortable with automatically replacing original parts until I know there is a problem.   Its not a big job ( in the big picture ;)   to swap them out if you find them lacking. Just my feelings
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline 68 S Code

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1084
Re: Rear Spring
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2014, 12:16:06 PM »
Tomato-Tomaaaato. ;D

Not the worst job to do but a increased risk of paint chips at the front eye mount.