Author Topic: Did Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # and a "P" stamp?  (Read 1449 times)

Offline livetoride60

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Did Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # and a "P" stamp?
« on: November 03, 2021, 09:15:36 AM »
Have a question for the hipo SMEs out there....

I recently saw a claim that ALL hipo 289 blocks were stamped with a consecutive unit number on the pad right above the clutch pivot point on the driver's side (picture included below). 
It was also said that NO regular 289s would have this stamp.  Can anyone confirm or deny this, or know if it was a practice only at certain plants or certain periods, etc.?

So far I have dug through some pics and found 1 hipo that had the number and 4 hipos and a regular 289 that have the "P".  Results and pics below

Photos below ordered by engine date:
  • Double "P" from a claimed hipo 289 block w/no VIN stamp (C40E Apr 64)
  • Consecutive unit number from a hipo 289 w/paxton that sold in 2016 at Mecum from Joe McMurrey collection (C4OE May 64)
  • "P" from hipo 289 w/VIN stamp (C5AE Sep 64 San Jose)
  • "P" from regular 289 block (C5AE Jan 65)
  • "P" from hipo 289 w/VIN stamp (C5AE Jan 65 Dearborn)
  • "P" from a claimed hipo 289 w/no VIN stamp in a tech college direct from Ford (C5AE Jul 65)

Thanks,
Rich
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 07:10:22 PM by J_Speegle »
'65 K code Fastback, 4sp, San Jose, 10/9/64
'66 C code Coupe, C4, Dearborn, 5/24/66
'67 Fairlane Convertible, 3sp, 200 I6

Offline livetoride60

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Re: Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # stamps?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2021, 10:46:33 AM »
Anyone have their hipo block out and can check this location?  Would be nice to get a pattern of stamp, plant, date...

UPDATE:  Just realized this would be the "engine" consecutive unit number, not the car, so assembly plant in the VIN wouldn't matter.  I'm assuming all 289K hipo engines were assembled at Cleveland?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 11:22:35 AM by livetoride60 »
'65 K code Fastback, 4sp, San Jose, 10/9/64
'66 C code Coupe, C4, Dearborn, 5/24/66
'67 Fairlane Convertible, 3sp, 200 I6

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Did Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # stamps?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2021, 01:51:47 PM »
Cleveland engine plant, check.

Five bolt bell housing HP289 engine assemblies were given sequential numbers by Ford for the 1963 and 1964 model years. Standard HP289, i.e. not counting prototype or pilot preproduction, engines wise that meant engines shipped to a vehicle assembly plant between March 1963 and July 1964. This includes Shelby American, Inc. for new Cobras. Only HP289 engines were given sequential numbers stamped into a tooling pad on the LH rear of blocks.

As we understand it Ford assigned numbers to engines as they were being prepared to shipment to a vehicle assembly plant. The sequential numbers were not in strict order of engine assembly timing. Ford stopped numbering engines as to what was for them the last of the 1964 model year engine shipments.  Ford made forty eight each five bolt bell housing engines for Shelby American to install in new unfinished Cobras in August 1964 and they were not numbered by Ford.

Bob Mannel has been collecting engine numbers and engine assembly dates for many years. He has data represented in a large chart covering 1963-64 HP289 production.

Otherwise, in the manufacturing process of taking a raw block casting and doing the work to make it a cylinder block assembly with main bearing caps various things were stamped into various places on blocks. Bob Mannel told me most of these stamped in markings meant nothing to Ford past the engine plant operations.

The information restorers and owners like to record includes block casting date, cylinder block assembly date, engine assembly date, and for 1963-64 HP289 engines the sequential number.

Casting date = by casting number, literally cast into the metal
Block machining and assembly date = on oil pan rail, covered by oil pan flange, stamped in
Engine assembly date = on block in front of LH cylinder head (if a block has had its decks milled this number is usually cut off also), stamped in
1963-64 sequential number = LH rear tooling boss, alpha characters found in that location were not part of the sequential number, stamped in

Other factory serial numbers? Shelby American (Cobras, King Cobras, and etcetera) and Ford Advanced Vehicles (GT40 MKIs) usually added a race team serial number to complete racing engines they prepared and installed. These numbers were used in internal documents like dynamometer test reports. 

There was nothing special about raw block castings that went into production HP289 engines. We believe operators inspected raw castings and chose casting defect free ones to be included in cylinder block assemblies were the heavy duty main bearing caps would be added. Installing the thick caps made it an assembly ready to be built into a HP289 engine assembly.  Any good block could have been converted to the same physical specifications to prepare it for a HP289 engine assembly.  What makes any engine more valuable, to some but not all people, is having the car it went with also. Ditto any other part. Example: If I could find "the" carburetor that Ford installed on the engine in our black car in 1964 it would be worth maybe $X in the market and maybe $2X to me just to have "the" carburetor Ford installed and not just a similar one.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 03:33:25 PM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Did Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # stamps?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2021, 06:19:45 PM »
Have a question for the hipo SMEs out there....

I recently saw a claim that ALL hipo 289 blocks were stamped with a consecutive unit number on the pad right above the clutch pivot point on the driver's side (picture included below). 

That has been the generally accepted expectation though like just about everything intent does not always match what was done by humans.


It was also said that NO regular 289s would have this stamp.  Can anyone confirm or deny this, or know if it was a practice only at certain plants or certain periods, etc.?

After reading the OP I see your now referring to the "P"

Never seen or heard of a discussion on the stamping on that pad. Have seen it used my owners and rebuilders though

Don't think it would be a car plant thing or why but think it is worth the discussion and research to find out what may have been going on just like we do for so many other subjects here 


So far I have dug through some pics and found 1 hipo that had the number and 4 hipos and a regular 289 that have the "P".  Results and pics below


Have a 289 out on the stand this moment cast and built in the very first part of 66 and don't recall seeing the "P" but will double check
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 07:08:54 PM by J_Speegle »
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline livetoride60

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Re: Did Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # stamps?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2021, 06:48:06 PM »
Not sure what the "P" stamping has to do with the stamping of Hipo block with the car's VIN

Not sure if it does.  Just noting which type of blocks I found the "P" mark, a couple known Hipo blocks with also VIN stamps, and a one "claimed" hipo block without VIN stamp that also had the "P"
'65 K code Fastback, 4sp, San Jose, 10/9/64
'66 C code Coupe, C4, Dearborn, 5/24/66
'67 Fairlane Convertible, 3sp, 200 I6

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Did Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # stamps?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2021, 07:07:49 PM »
Not sure if it does.  Just noting which type of blocks I found the "P" mark, a couple known Hipo blocks with also VIN stamps, and a one "claimed" hipo block without VIN stamp that also had the "P"

The "P", means nothing towards end use application Cobra or boat engine or anything in between. The "P" was very common on 260/289 blocks and meant something only to somebody on the engine block machining or cylinder block assembly line.  There were also many stamped "PA" or "PB" during the 1964 model year. In all 1962-64 HP260/HP289 cases known personally and from what Bob Mannel told me, the "P" was there before the Ford HP289 sequential number was stamped if a "P" was there at all. "P" letters could be a little crooked or rotated a lot. Sometimes the 1963-64 Ford HP289 sequential number was stamped over whatever was there first. There is not a whole "P" on the original block in our red car just the tail under the loop. The person hand stamping the block almost missed the machined pad completely. That goes back to what Ford wanted versus what operators did as someone else mentioned. High Performance 260 engine number 137 that was installed in a new Cobra in 1963 has a double stamped "PP". It appears the hammer blow made the stamp move just a little and the person hit the stamp handle a second time. The second P was partially over the first P.


All these markings are well known to Bob Mannel and those of us researching Cobras and or Shelby American race engines.


I do not put out detailed pictures of sizes, known factory variations, and fonts because there is plenty of fraud in the market place already. 
« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 07:29:17 PM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Did Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # and a "P" stamp?
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2021, 07:10:07 PM »
Not sure if it does.  Just noting which type of blocks I found the "P" mark, a couple known Hipo blocks with also VIN stamps, and a one "claimed" hipo block without VIN stamp that also had the "P"

Reworded my post about for clarity - Hopefully

And adjusted the title of the thread
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline livetoride60

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Re: Did Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # stamps?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2021, 07:36:32 PM »
Cleveland engine plant, check.

Five bolt bell housing HP289 engine assemblies?.


And GREAT info Dan, thanks

Thanks too Jeff
'65 K code Fastback, 4sp, San Jose, 10/9/64
'66 C code Coupe, C4, Dearborn, 5/24/66
'67 Fairlane Convertible, 3sp, 200 I6

Offline sgl66

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Re: Did Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # and a "P" stamp?
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2021, 10:16:33 PM »
This is the first time I can recall in 40 years hearing about the P stamp. FWIW my Sept 65 HiPo block has it but at the end of the day it may not mean anything but at least you have another reference point now.

66 GT 6T09K12---- scheduled Oct 14, bucked Oct 13 '65

Offline livetoride60

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Re: Did Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # and a "P" stamp?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2021, 10:43:20 AM »
Agreed...always nice to learn something new, or to have the excitement of investigating ...  :)
'65 K code Fastback, 4sp, San Jose, 10/9/64
'66 C code Coupe, C4, Dearborn, 5/24/66
'67 Fairlane Convertible, 3sp, 200 I6

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Did Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # stamps?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2021, 05:57:30 PM »
And GREAT info Dan, thanks

Thanks too Jeff

You are welcome.
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline livetoride60

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Re: Did Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # and a "P" stamp?
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2021, 04:07:31 PM »
Another question to Dan or others

I dug through more pics and found these numbers stamped on the oil pan rail of a C4 5 bolt block with hipo internals but no VIN or consecutive unit number on the pad above the clutch pivot.  Could one of these be a consecutive unit number or are they something else?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2021, 09:07:08 AM by livetoride60 »
'65 K code Fastback, 4sp, San Jose, 10/9/64
'66 C code Coupe, C4, Dearborn, 5/24/66
'67 Fairlane Convertible, 3sp, 200 I6

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Did Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # and a "P" stamp?
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2021, 04:34:56 PM »
I dug through more pics and found these numbers stamped on the oil pan rail of a C4 5 bolt block with hipo internals but no VIN or consecutive unit number on the pad above the clutch pivot.  Could one of these be a consecutive unit number or are they something else?

Not aware of Ford numbering individual blocks during the 64-73 period at the engine plants

Odd set of numbers in that location as far as what I've got or can recall

Often find individual numbers, letters and symbols (numbers in boxes and circles) in that corner and the machined date on the other side above/below the casting date and such. Font for the numbers you posted are different style from the others I've seen

Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Did Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # and a "P" stamp?
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2021, 05:36:23 PM »
Not aware of Ford numbering individual blocks during the 64-73 period at the engine plants

Odd set of numbers in that location as far as what I've got or can recall

Often find individual numbers, letters and symbols (numbers in boxes and circles) in that corner and the machined date on the other side above/below the casting date and such. Font for the numbers you posted are different style from the others I've seen

+1 Circa 1973 I got real upset at a machine shop for stamping a group of numbers on my Boss 302 block and heads.  I had no idea they were going to do that. After the fact they told me they stamped everything before work started so they could keep track of it. They were a very high volume shop and I could see how parts could get mixed up if not marked. I have seen cylinder heads with the names of the machine shop stamped into them.
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline J_Speegle

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Re: Did Hipo 289 blocks have consecutive unit # and a "P" stamp?
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2021, 10:27:11 PM »
.................. I have seen cylinder heads with the names of the machine shop stamped into them.

An example of one such well known and important, to some early, Shelby owners since they did the modifications to many of the Shelby race engines at the time

Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)