Author Topic: Basic 4-2V Weber carburetor induction system accessory list.  (Read 1702 times)

Offline Dan Case

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Basic 4-2V Weber carburetor induction system accessory list.
« on: August 20, 2020, 09:41:28 AM »
I read questions about whether or not Ford offered 260/289 c.i.d. 4-2V "Weber" induction systems for new Fords in the 1960s. Specifically some folks ask about Mustangs. The short answers are:

- No. 4-2V systems were not offered for new street cars factory installed EXCEPT Cobras and GT40s (only one new street Cobra was ordered and completed).
- Yes. Selected new Ford and Lincoln-Mercury competition only cars could be ordered with "Webers". At least one new 1965 MUSTANG GT350 competition car was so fitted for a customer in South America.
- Yes. Anybody could order kits through their local Ford / L-M dealer for any 260/289 powered Ford and have the dealer install it (or install it themselves). Ford used a Fairlane picture in advertising of systems.


This is the collection of kit data I have.
Carburetor(s) Used                   Ford Kit Number                    Suggested Retail Price / Year
48 IDM1 first then 48 IDM5       C4OZ-6B068-C                      $1,230.70 / 1963 early
48 IDM5                               C4OZ-6B068-C                      $1,000 / 1963 late to early 1964
48 IDA or 48 IDA1                  C5OZ-6B068-A                        $695.00 / 1964 mid
48 IDA or 48 IDA1                  C5OZ-6B068-A                        $595.00 / 1964 late to 1965
48 IDA or 48 IDA1                  S1CR-9423 (new intake design)               $595.00 /  1964 through 1967
48 IDA1                                     S7WK-9423                                                $595.00 / 1967 (COUGAR lettered intake)


To give you some perspective. A well optioned VW(R) Beetle in 1963 was around $1,500 retail I think.

Exact designs of linkage and other ancillaries changed over time. Linkage systems started off being very complicated with lots of intricate small parts. The steel levers required were hand fabricated by Shelby American race shop employees as required. The S1CR-9423 system was a significant redesign with simple linkage system comprised of mass produced parts sourced mainly from Eelco(R)and Hilborn (R).  By 1965 the systems of the day could be purchased through Ford dealers, Shelby's parts department, or Dean Moon's businesses.

Anything made during 1963 or 1964 is extremely rare as a loose part now. More of everything was made in 1965 but 1965 made parts are pretty rare. By 1966 there must have been a much larger demand in the aftermarket because 1966-early 1967 pieces are the most common in period pieces for sale. By mid 1967 the SHELBY lettered intakes were available. I once rode in (circa 1971) a 1968 GT350 convertible with owner added SHELBY 4-2V system.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2021, 01:48:58 PM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline Bossbill

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Re: Basic 4-2V Weber carburetor induction system accessory list.
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2020, 04:02:32 PM »
A friend of mine has a Shelby 4x2 intake with, I believe, 45 IDAs on his 65 K-code.
He had to severely modify the length and position of the firewall Z bar throttle linkage and never did get it to go full throttle without the accelerator pedal being above the brake pedal at idle.
I'd love to see pictures or other data on how this was done in kit form (for a 65 or 66 Mustang).
Bill
Concours  Actual Ford Build 3/2/67 GT350 01375
Driven      6/6/70 0T02G160xxx Boss 302
Modified   5/18/65 5F09A728xxx Boss 347 Terminator-X 8-Stack
Race        65 2+2 Coupe conversion

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Basic 4-2V Weber carburetor induction system accessory list.
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2020, 08:51:26 AM »
The C4OZ-6B068-C kit was aimed at Cobras and included everything  less gaskets, coolant and fuel hoses, and hose clamps from the throttle foot pedal pillow block to the central shaft mounted to the intake to do a Cobra installation. Not every part would apply to a Fairlane or any other vehicle. 1965 MUSTANG GT350 SFM5R096 had much of one of these systems installed in Canada except it was using the later 48 IDA style carburetors but I cannot see how a Mustang's throttle mechanism was adapted in the available picture. 

The C5OZ-6B068-A kit was also aimed at Cobras but had fewer linkage system parts. Said another way, not all the parts required to get from a Cobra's foot pedal operated lever to the intake manifold was included anymore. It was certainly not a complete kit for Cobras or any other car.

The S1CR-9423 kit did not have any linkage included other than the central shaft and links to the four carburetors running from it.  Available separately were a short bronze lever from Hilborn(R) for Cobras and a longer steel lever from Eelco(R) for use in anything else for the rear end of the central shaft. I have a 1964 made system Bob Johnson used last in a GT350 and it has the long steel lever.  I have not seen anything else linkage wise offered by Ford or Shelby to adapt one of these systems to a Mustang's throttle linkage system.  That does not mean Ford might not have offered something as I have not seen the most of the kits Dearborn Steel Tubing and Ford came up with for installing 3-2V and 2-4V in Falcons, Fairlanes, and Galaxies except I did buy a Fairlane 3-2V induction installation kit by mistake in the 1970s and it would not work on a Cobra or a Mustang. I have seen a list of Ford installation kits, as separate kits from the induction kits, for the 3-2V and 2-4V systems though. 

Shelby American did at least one new GT350 installation but I have not found any period pictures of the installation. When the car came back into the country the 4-2V induction system was separated from the car.

Sorry, I have just not come across what Ford might have offered, if any, for installation kits besides Cobras.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 03:13:56 PM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline Bossbill

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Re: Basic 4-2V Weber carburetor induction system accessory list.
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2020, 01:03:59 PM »
Thanks for your -- as always -- complete reply.
I think our best bet would to re-ratio the two L-pivot arms to get quicker action out of the carb side.
Bill
Concours  Actual Ford Build 3/2/67 GT350 01375
Driven      6/6/70 0T02G160xxx Boss 302
Modified   5/18/65 5F09A728xxx Boss 347 Terminator-X 8-Stack
Race        65 2+2 Coupe conversion

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Basic 4-2V Weber carburetor induction system accessory list.
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2020, 03:20:22 PM »
You are welcome.

The concern for any installation is too much travel and too much foot power transmitted to the carburetors. The original throttle shafts in the carburetors are very soft steel (think coat hanger wire steel) and will damage easily. A good installation has hard stops built in at both ends of travel that don't jam throttle blades too closed or too open under any circumstances.

Cobras used very short drive levers. You could adjust (select an installation hole, rotation of a pinch clamp, something threaded, and several combinations thereof)
- where the throttle pedal stopped at full travel,
- the moment arm length for the lever mounted on the throttle pedal pillow block shaft,
- the angular location of the lever mounted on the throttle pedal pillow block shaft,
- the moment arm length at the horizontal bell crank mounted on the back of the LH cylinder head,
- the moment arm length at the output side of that bell crank,
- the control rod turnbuckle length going to that bell crank,
- the control rod turnbuckle length leaving that bell crank,
- hard stops closed for each carburetor,
- angular location of the drive lever on the center shaft

Any standard Ford didn't have all those floatable adjustements.

Just for fun I included a slide of a 1963 Shelby race shop installation on a new race car and a 1964 system Bob Johnson used last in a Mustang.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2021, 01:53:33 PM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline Bossbill

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Re: Basic 4-2V Weber carburetor induction system accessory list.
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2020, 09:42:35 PM »
Thanks for the pics, Dan.
Bill
Concours  Actual Ford Build 3/2/67 GT350 01375
Driven      6/6/70 0T02G160xxx Boss 302
Modified   5/18/65 5F09A728xxx Boss 347 Terminator-X 8-Stack
Race        65 2+2 Coupe conversion

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Basic 4-2V Weber carburetor induction system accessory list.
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2020, 10:22:31 AM »
You are welcome. The 4-2V systems are interesting and as we experimented with tuning air fuel ratio and road manners I came to understand why 1963-1966 they were so popular in road racing 260/289 powered cars.  For most purposes though, a 4V system tuned optimally is superior in many ways besides wide open throttle acceleration from a low engine rpm starting point.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 10:29:49 AM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Basic 4-2V Weber carburetor induction system accessory list.
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2020, 12:46:26 PM »
Weber 48 IDA Series Carburetor. Made in Italy, made by the original "Weber" company, maybe but maybe not.

The question of whether or not any specific carburetor or sets of carburetors was made in Italy and made by the famous carburetor company S.p.A. Edorado Weber in the 1960s is of interest to some car owners and their restorers. Some might want carburetors made in specific time frames as there was not "a" carburetor but a series of them that evolved over time in several ways before 1970. This commentary does not cover units made by the original company late 1970 onward or the modern company 1992 or later.

Take note and buyer beware as not all "MADE IN ITALY" marked 48 IDA type carburetors in the marketplace are genuine "originals", i.e. not every one was made by the company that you think made them. I will let those interested look up the words resemblance and or counterfeit.

I see some 48 IDA, 48 IDA-1, and lots of 48 IDA4 models for sale that have a few to multiple details inconsistent with the several hundred known genuine examples produced by the S.p.A. Edorado Weber (Weber) firm in Italy.  I once saw two (2) each bogus serial number 1 48 IDA carburetors for sale while attending a single SAAC convention.  At least three entities have produced counterfeit parts and carburetors since the 1970s. All the main body castings indicated that they were made in Italy. Were they? I have no idea but they sure are not consistent with what E. Weber actually made. I have read in print that the first counterfeits started showing up in the United Kingdom by 1971 and that includes service parts and whole carburetors.  I have read about and corresponded with racers about some of the issues users suffered were believed to have resulted in getting bogus parts and or carburetors mixed into their racing induction systems. 

The common context  is a seller claiming their offering(s) is(are) genuine Weber made in Italy during the 1960s carburetors solely based on the detail of having "MADE IN ITALY" cast into the main bodies.  That line of text is not an automatic verification of authenticity.  So, how does one identify a potential counterfeit? In broad terms the two situations that automatically call my attention to them is 1) mixed features and 2) poor aluminum castings quality. One can drill down to smaller details but most of the time one does not have to do much study. 

Mixed Features:  Many of the parts from main body castings to small ancillary parts were made in series that change specifications over time. If an used assembly has let us say design features of two to several different 'factory' periods mixed into one carburetor, that has me examine the unit more carefully. Notes: 1) Restored carburetors almost always have mixed time frame and or design parts incorporated in them.  That makes evaluating them more difficult.  2) At least one clever person has started modifying 1970s and later E. Weber made carburetors to closely mimic 1960s versions right down to restamping of model and serial numbers. 

Poor Aluminum Castings (body and cover): E. Weber had very nice aluminum die casting molds to produce the blanks for these parts.  The best counterfeit castings are often very hard to identify as such because the makers went to a lot of trouble to produce their castings. One version of counterfeits has very poorly done castings.  Take a look at the image below. It looks like somebody made something like a plaster cast of a genuine body and hand poured their versions. Not shown but there are gaps in places in the mounting flanges where metal did not get to. This one is really easy to spot as not genuine even though it says "MADE IN ITALY" on it.




How many bogus carburetors are out in the world?  I have no idea. In my database I have enough very questionable units to be aware that inconsistent ones are out there.

Enter the reproductions of 48 IDM carburetors currently in development. Not counterfeits as they are being created with well advertised descriptions as reproductions. Before the die cast aluminum bodies and covers 46/48 IDA family there was the heavy sand cast bodies and covers 46/48 IDM family used by just about anybody racing early 260/289 Ford powered sports cars, including Cobras. Being created and advertised as reproductions there might be a point in time when the second or subsequent owner does not realize that they are reproductions. Just think of all the clearly reproduction "COBRA" lettered parts that get offered for as genuine 1960s factory pieces!

Bear all this in mind when somebody offers some "real" made in Italy carburetors for sale.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2021, 01:58:50 PM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline 196667Bob

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Re: Basic 4-2V Weber carburetor induction system accessory list.
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2020, 05:42:39 PM »
Attached from 1965 and 1966 Ford High Performance Catalogs, respectively.

Bob
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67
MCA 04909

Offline Dan Case

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Re: Basic 4-2V Weber carburetor induction system accessory list.
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2020, 06:40:56 PM »
Attached from 1965 and 1966 Ford High Performance Catalogs, respectively.

Bob

The pictures are deceiving as both pages show the second version of C4OZ-6B068-C system with sand cast 48 IDM family carburetors. The C5OZ-6B068-A systems used 48 IDA and IDA1 carburetors and different inlet fittings but otherwise would look similar.

Just for fun, the rocker arm covers shown for 1964 onward engines are renditions of the original design. Produced by Buddy Barksdale's company they do not have "Buddy Bar" cast into them and the oil fill tube is smooth chromium plated. The chromium plating was done thinly and poorly. The tubes would quickly develop red rust. Chromium plated tubes and no "Buddy Bar" text versions were only made briefly. They are very rare. I have an unrestored chromium plated tube no Buddy Bar cover assembly on display next to its successor an assembly with cadmium plated tube and now marked the familiar "BUDDY BAR". Side bar: Cobra wise Ford kits compiled by Dearborn Steel Tubing Company had different fasteners in the kits than anything known for Shelby American or Continental Cars "factory" installations.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2020, 06:53:10 PM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline jwc66k

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Re: Basic 4-2V Weber carburetor induction system accessory list.
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2020, 07:42:36 PM »
Some people collect carbs and stuff. Unfortunately, it's not me.
I try and keep my 66 GT K Fastback as close to factory original as possible. So far so good.
Jim
I promise to be politically correct in all my posts to keep the BBBB from vociferating.