Topic: New Hydraulic Lifter Concern

[1970 Snake]

This may not be the right place to pass this on, but feel I should let others know my concern. I had purchased my new Comp Cam valve train components for my 428 CJ back in 2014 but only started my rebuild in October 2019. One of the speed shop guys had told me to ensure I check the lifter's bottom face for any knicks/chips on the edge of the surface as they could cause damage to the cam lobe. I found that two of the lifters did have chips on the edge, so I decided to get another set of Comps lifters and use the best of the two sets. When comparing them I noticed that the push rod cup in the new 2019 version did not match the 2014 version and only had a 1/4" cup and not a 3/8" cup as required by the FE push rods. My assessment of this was that if I use the new version lifter with the 1/4" cup the 3/8" ball on the push rod would be sitting on the sharp edge of the lifter cup and this assembly would sooner or later fail, particularly if using a more aggressive cam profile and higher valve spring pressures.

I spoke to Comp Cams tech department and they said it was just a new design, but would pass it on to their engineering group, I have not heard from them in 3 months. I also had ordered the Elgin FE high performance lifters and found they also had a 1/4" ball detent, I spoke with their tech guy and he indicated the cup should match the rod and he would not use them and they have pulled all their HP Ford lifters from their stock until the manufacture can advise why the smaller cup detent. Elgin has refunded me for their HP lifters and I have decided to go with Elgin's STD lifter which has a 3/8" ball detent to match the push rod.

[1967 eight barrel]

First of all, Comp doesn't make their own lifters. They are made... Well, guess where. China. Their quality as dropped significantly and there has been a rash of cam failures.  Discard the Comp junk, buy a set of Crower Camsaver Lifters.

Based on your post I assume you're unfamiliar with break-in procedures. They are critical with flat-tappet cams with current oil additive packages. You can't just buy something at Oreilly's and a zinc additive anymore.
If you want a detailed procedure and products I'll be glad to outline them for you.  Very likely you'll be successful and have a happy engine post the break-in.


https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-66000x3-16?seid=srese1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9v-_n6XS6AIV0oCfCh0bWAzhEAQYAiABEgJnsfD_BwE

[1970 Snake]

NO, I am very familiar with cam break-in etc. and have built a lot of engines over the years and is why I was not willing to use the lifters comp provided. I build all my own engines and do pretty much all but the machine work as I do not have the equipment, but have both my precision machinist and millwrights tickets. When speaking to the Elgin tech he advised me that there are only two manufacturers in the USA (I believe he said Eaton and Delphi) that engineer and build lifters in the USA and pretty much supply all of the lifters to Crane, Comp, Elgin and others, and is why we are seeing the mismatch in the cup from more than one supplier.

I only posted this to advise others of what I have found and my concern regarding the use of the Comp and Elgin HP Lifters. The lifter pictures I posted are what I took and documented and sent to Comp and Elgin and discussed with them, and Elgin agrees with me that the cups need to match the rod, and are taking this up with their lifter manufacturer, they feel it will take sometime to resolve, but are going to keep me posted.

[1967 eight barrel]

The Crower lifters are about the best out there. Johnson used to be one of the better, but they too have gone the way of the dinosaur.
The Crower product is really the way to go. All of use who are doing more than the occasional back-yard build are using specific break-in oil with the added zinc.
I am a huge fan of Brad Penn aka Penngrade. Straight 30wt break-in.  I still use the Isky lube as well.  If you're familiar with the FE power they'll provide the same information. I went away from the flat tappet to a roller cam and valvetrain this time around. It just made sense. Be sure that you restrict the oil flow to the rocker shafts as well.

[mtinkham]

Thank you for sharing.

[RoyceP]

The good news is that you can buy NOS Ford lifters on eBay. Right now there are several sellers who have 4, 6 or 8 lifters for sale. They are good for around 6200 RPM. Plenty for me typically. They are better quality than anything else on the market today as far as a stock hydraulic lifter for an FE. P/N is C4TZ 6500-A, Replaced by C8AZ 6500-A. Either number is fine, they can be intermixed too.

The bad news is that now that I have posted this I won't be able to buy any because everyone else will buy them up.

This may not be the right place to pass this on, but feel I should let others know my concern. I had purchased my new Comp Cam valve train components for my 428 CJ back in 2014 but only started my rebuild in October 2019. One of the speed shop guys had told me to ensure I check the lifter's bottom face for any knicks/chips on the edge of the surface as they could cause damage to the cam lobe. I found that two of the lifters did have chips on the edge, so I decided to get another set of Comps lifters and use the best of the two sets. When comparing them I noticed that the push rod cup in the new 2019 version did not match the 2014 version and only had a 1/4" cup and not a 3/8" cup as required by the FE push rods. My assessment of this was that if I use the new version lifter with the 1/4" cup the 3/8" ball on the push rod would be sitting on the sharp edge of the lifter cup and this assembly would sooner or later fail, particularly if using a more aggressive cam profile and higher valve spring pressures.

I spoke to Comp Cams tech department and they said it was just a new design, but would pass it on to their engineering group, I have not heard from them in 3 months. I also had ordered the Elgin FE high performance lifters and found they also had a 1/4" ball detent, I spoke with their tech guy and he indicated the cup should match the rod and he would not use them and they have pulled all their HP Ford lifters from their stock until the manufacture can advise why the smaller cup detent. Elgin has refunded me for their HP lifters and I have decided to go with Elgin's STD lifter which has a 3/8" ball detent to match the push rod.

[RoyceP]

Another option if you have a cam that deserves quick bleed or anti pump up lifters is Johnson. They are pricey but quality is outstanding.

https://www.johnsonlifters.com/Products/HydraulicFlatTappetLifters/4214R.aspx

[1967 eight barrel]

I love Johnson lifters. They were supplied with my custom grind flat-tappet.   Super high quality.
Ford hydraulic lifter are fine for STOCK applications.  Not performance applications.

[RoyceP]

Ford lifters came on engines like the 427 side oiler and the 428CJ / SCJ. They are outstanding quality and work great up to around 6200 RPM (I have not tried going any higher) than anything else on the market today.

Are the 427 and the 428CJ / SCJ not performance applications?

I love Johnson lifters. They were supplied with my custom grind flat-tappet.   Super high quality.
Ford hydraulic lifter are fine for STOCK applications.  Not performance applications.

[1970 Snake]

I hear everything you are telling me about Johnson lifters and as good as they maybe, if the push rod ball does not fit the cup in the lifter, as far as I am concerned there's an issue, and after review of the Johnson pictures they too look like they have a ball detent that is to small for the 3/8" diameter Ford push rod ball (see attached pic from Johnson website), and will at some point fail because the 3/8" ball is riding on the top edge the lifter cup instead fitting properly into it.

Again I only posted my findings to advise others building engines regarding those findings and concerns. They/you can do whatever you want regarding your builds and if your comfortable using a lifter where the cup does not match the rod ball diameter that's your choice, I am not and Elgin tech agrees. Also I am not going to be running my motor over 6K and a good quality STD lifter will work perfectly fine within that criteria. Again thanks for the input, its all good to know what's out there and what others are using.

[1967 eight barrel]

Ford lifters came on engines like the 427 side oiler and the 428CJ / SCJ. They are outstanding quality and work great up to around 6200 RPM (I have not tried going any higher) than anything else on the market today.

Are the 427 and the 428CJ / SCJ not performance applications?

There are no difference in lifters for the SCJ, the CJ or the 390. They all use the same Ford hydraulic tappet.  As for the 427, they are solid tappets, OTHER than your 68' W
 code application. You might have noted the cam is done in your Cougar at 5600 rpm.

[RoyceP]

It's the same cam grind as the 390GT, 428CJ, and the 428SCJ. Because the 427 in my W code Cougar is a side oiler, it has grooved journals on #2 and #5. It's a smooth cam but not bad. While it doesn't necessarily make more horsepower or torque above 5600 (and maybe lower) it goes fastest at the track shifting at 6000, which results in the engine hitting 6200 - ish during the shift. It's not a bad thing.

There are no difference in lifters for the SCJ, the CJ or the 390. They all use the same Ford hydraulic tappet.  As for the 427, they are solid tappets, OTHER than your 68' W
 code application. You might have noted the cam is done in your Cougar at 5600 rpm.