Topic: Correct AL water pump bolts - Oct 64 San Jose

[livetoride60]

Hi - I have an Oct 64 SJ fastback with K-code engine.  No AC or power steering.  I have AMK water pump bolt kit F-388 for 65 289 w/ALT w/o AC, but some of the bolt head patterns are not matching what I see on Charles's later (Dec 64 I think?) SJ K code convertible.  I only had 1 original water pump bolt and a few timing cover bolts, so hoping to get some clarification. 

Hope its ok Charles, but I "borrowed" a copy of your engine pic from your K code convertible blog to help illustrate....

Position
#1 - kit has Zinc grade 8 bolt head (6 slots) with no flange
#2 - kit has Cadmium grade 8 bolt head (6 slots) with no flange for this position
#3 - kit has P&O grade 8 head (6 slots) with no flange
#4 - kit has P&O bolt head with no flange and grade 5 markings (3 lines) here

All other bolts in the kit for both the water pump and timing cover are P&O with with flanged heads and no head markings.  All my 5 original bolts are of this type, but as mentioned, only 1 is for the water pump.

Can anyone advise on the correct bolt heads and finishes for this application?  I read in Bob Mannel's book that for later cast iron pumps, some of the bolts where switched from the no marking flange types, to grade 8s with no flange, but it doesn't detail the bolts for earlier AL pumps.

Thanks in advance,
Rich

[J_Speegle]

A few pictures that might help

[jwc66k]

From one of my spreadsheets (it was created in 1995), some data updated to include head markings on hardware that I have. Many bolts I have did not have any markings but they may have already been replace before they were removed and I acquired them. The bolts with a UNK head marking I do not have. Note that they are the shorter bolts, I can't explain why. AMK supplies all the bolts in kit form, but does not sell all as individual items, hence NONE for the AMK stock number. 
I numbered my bolts starting at 1 from the 12 o'clock position, AMK started at 4. Sorry for the weird spacing, it's a long story.

HOLES IN ALUMINUM WATER PUMP NUMBERED FROM TOP CLOCKWISE WHEN FACING ENGINE

HOLE/
NOTE    P/N       DESCR                             HEAD MKG         END USE                     REF                   AMK
1 A   376256-S2    5/16-18X1.0 HEX,FLANGE                    UNK              TO TAP IN TIMING COVER       AM0155P02,3    B-12507
2      42959-S7     5/16-18X1 3/8 HEX,PLACE                    UNK              TO TAP IN TIMING COVER       AM0155P16    NONE
2     354033-S2    5/16FLW,0.344ID,0.750OD,0.156T      N/A              TO TAP IN TIME COV W/O P/S    AM0155P02,3    B-12996
3     376258-S2    5/16-18X3 7/16 HEX,FLANGE,GR5     R, G WITH L   TO ENG THRU TIME COV       SER,MEAS      B-12711
4     379681-S8    5/16-18X3 11/16,HEX,PLACE,GR8      UNK              TO ENG THRU TIME COV      AM0155P16    NONE
4     354033-S2    5/16FLW,0.344ID,0.750OD,0.156T      N/A              TO ENG THRU TIME COV       AM0155P16    B-12996
4     377958-S8     5/16-18X4 35/64STUD,HED CTR            N/A              TO ENG THRU TIME COV      AM0005P47    NONE
5 B   376256-S2    5/16-18X1.0 HEX,FLANGE                    UNK              TO TAP IN TIMING COVER                      B-12507
6 B   376256-S2    5/16-18X1.0 HEX,FLANGE                    UNK              TO TAP IN TIMING COVER                      B-12507
7    NONE      3/8-16 TAP,7/8 DEEP                              N/A                  FOR ALT ADJ BKT            
REF                   1 3/4 WATER OUTLET
8   300958-S8     5/16-18X5.0 HEX,GR 5                GR 5,R B W      TO ENG THRU TIMING COVER   AM0155P10,11    B-10173
9   NONE      5/16-18 TAP 3/4 DEEP                N/A                 FOR GEN ADJ BKT
10    376258-S2    5/16-18X3 7/16 HEX,FLANGE,GR5   R, G WITH L   TO ENG THRU TIMING COVER    SER,MEAS      B-12711
REF                 BYPASS HOSE
11    42966-S8           5/16-18X2 1/4 HEX,PLACE,GR8           RSP 8      TO TAP IN TIMING COVER      AM0155P10,11   B-12685
REF                 TO HEATER

NOTES
A: ALSO FUEL LINE BRACKET
B: RECOMMEND SEALANT ON TIP

[livetoride60]

A few pictures that might help

Thanks Jeff.  Great pics!  I can see positions 1 and 2 from those, and looks like both match what the kit has.

From one of my spreadsheets (it was created in 1995), some data updated to include head markings on hardware that I have. Many bolts I have did not have any markings but they may have already been replace before they were removed and I acquired them. The bolts with a UNK head marking I do not have. Note that they are the shorter bolts, I can't explain why. AMK supplies all the bolts in kit form, but does not sell all as individual items, hence NONE for the AMK stock number. 
I numbered my bolts starting at 1 from the 12 o'clock position, AMK started at 4. Sorry for the weird spacing, it's a long story.

Thanks also Jim.  I made notes on your table with my positions in parenthesis.  Some match, some don't as noted.  BTW - what does "PLACE" mean?


HOLE/
NOTE    P/N        DESCR                             HEAD MKG      Rich Notes
1 A   376256-S2    5/16-18X1.0 HEX,FLANGE            UNK           + kit has same, no head mkg
2 (2)  42959-S7    5/16-18X1 3/8 HEX,PLACE           UNK           - kit has GR8 here, head mkg I I I T R
2     354033-S2    5/16FLW,0.344ID,0.750OD,0.156T    N/A           + kit has washer (not used with P/S)
3     376258-S2    5/16-18X3 7/16 HEX,FLANGE,GR5     R, G WITH L   + kit has 3 1/2, FLANGE, no head mkg
4 (3) 379681-S8    5/16-18X3 11/16,HEX,PLACE,GR8     UNK           + kit also has GR8, head mkg P 5  (P maybe an F)
4     354033-S2    5/16FLW,0.344ID,0.750OD,0.156T    N/A           + kit has washer (not used with P/S)
4     377958-S8    5/16-18X4 35/64STUD,HED CTR       N/A           - kit has no stud
5 B   376256-S2    5/16-18X1.0 HEX,FLANGE            UNK           + kit has same, no head mkg
6 B   376256-S2    5/16-18X1.0 HEX,FLANGE            UNK           + kit has same, no head mkg
7          NONE    3/8-16 TAP,7/8 DEEP               N/A           - not in kit
8 (4) 300958-S8    5/16-18X5.0 HEX,GR 5              GR 5,R B W    + kit also has GR5 w/head mkg R B W
9          NONE    5/16-18 TAP 3/4 DEEP              N/A           - not in kit
10    376258-S2    5/16-18X3 7/16 HEX,FLANGE,GR5     R, G WITH L   + kit has 3 1/2, FLANGE, no head mkg
11 (1) 42966-S8    5/16-18X2 1/4 HEX,PLACE,GR8       RSP 8         + kit also has GR8 but/head mkg F 8

[livetoride60]

From one of my spreadsheets (it was created in 1995), some data updated to include head markings on hardware that I have. Many bolts I have did not have any markings but they may have already been replace before they were removed and I acquired them.

Also Jim, where these bolts from a particular plant / time period or all over?

[CharlesTurner]

I spent a bit of time on this, referencing other San Jose cars from the same time period as the K convertible.  It was several years ago, so unfortunately do not remember all the specifics.  I would have used original bolts.

[livetoride60]

Thanks Charles.  If you still have the car, would it be possible to check the head markings for bolts in position 1-4 on your engine pic I marked up?  The pic doesn't have enough detail to tell.

[jwc66k]

Also Jim, where these bolts from a particular plant / time period or all over?

Most of the cars I see on the West Coast were built in Milpitas (San Jose plant) but as to the time period, I got five gallon buckets of hardware from a (legal) dismantler almost monthly for at least 20 years. That source has all but dried up as most currently wrecked Mustangs wind up in Mexico. I can't tell much more than that from what I get.

I would have used original bolts.

It's getting on 50 years for 65 Mustangs. Over time, a lot of hardware was replaced when water pumps or timing chains themselves were replaced. A lot of the hardware associated with the pump or cover were corroded past the point of use, and I have to assume that who ever was in the situation of keeping their Mustang "alive" got whatever bolt fit. Concourse grade does not apply to a real daily driver.

BTW - what does "PLACE" mean?

"PLACE" is the style bolt with the six notches on the head. It may be the trade name, I don't know. The theory was that the head of a place bolt would contract and thereby act as a locking feature without using a washer.
I pulled the AMK hardware kit (F-388) for V-8 aluminum pumps from my stash and most of the heads had no marking. I've had the kit at least ten years unused and finally opened it about two years ago.
From a couple of Jeff's pictures you can see no head markings on several of the flange hex bolts. Maybe that's normal.
Jim 

[Texas Swede]

Please note that the AMK kit includes a longer bolt and thick washer for cars with power steering or A/C, don't remember which. Washer to be used if car didn't have any of these accessories. Original HiPo's had a shorter bolt and no thick washer.
Took me some time and investigation to come to this conclusion and use the original shorter bolt instead of the one in the kit together with the washer.
Texas Swede

[livetoride60]

Good to know!  (on the shorter bolt)

And thanks Jim for the explanation of PLACE, etc.

[ChrisV289]

Please note that the AMK kit includes a longer bolt and thick washer for cars with power steering or A/C, don't remember which. Washer to be used if car didn't have any of these accessories. Original HiPo's had a shorter bolt and no thick washer.
Took me some time and investigation to come to this conclusion and use the original shorter bolt instead of the one in the kit together with the washer.
Texas Swede

I believe they offer two different kits, one with AC and one without.  I have the one with AC and can post the picture later if needed of the instructions. 

[Texas Swede]

In the kit I bought it said use the washer for cars without A/C and without the washer for
cars with A/C. I looked at original factory pictures of 65 Shelbys and there was no washer so I used an original shorter bolt instead of the longer one in the kit. Also please note I ordered a kit for a 65 Shelby with aluminum water pump.
Texas Swede

[ChrisV289]

Here is the kit for a 289 w/ alt and AC:

[Texas Swede]

Sorry Chris,
The bolt and washer I have been talking about is number 5 on the diagram, i.e. for power steering or not. As you can see from my first post i said I didn't remember if it was power steering or A/C but as usual I got confused and missed the power steering part in my last
post. The kit I bought was without A/C but the problem was the washer and longer bolt. HiPo's didn't have power steering and I didn't like to use the longer bolt with the thick washer as it wasn't on the HiPo's originally. Guess AMK doesn't like to have too many kits but I think they should include a short bolt instead of the washer for non power steering cars.
Texas Swede

[Bob Gaines]

Sorry Chris,
The bolt and washer I have been talking about is number 5 on the diagram, i.e. for power steering or not. As you can see from my first post i said I didn't remember if it was power steering or A/C but as usual I got confused and missed the power steering part in my last
post. The kit I bought was without A/C but the problem was the washer and longer bolt. HiPo's didn't have power steering and I didn't like to use the longer bolt with the thick washer as it wasn't on the HiPo's originally. Guess AMK doesn't like to have too many kits but I think they should include a short bolt instead of the washer for non power steering cars.
Texas Swede

Many already know this but for those that don't, the washer talked about was used to take up the space that the bracket ordinarily would on a A/C or P/S application. As Bo concluded, the hipo engines seemed to be different and didn't use the washer because they used a shorter bolt from the git go being that A/C and or P/S was not available on regular production hipo engines. I am of the same opinion.