Author Topic: 65 head light door  (Read 1107 times)

Offline fmr187

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65 head light door
« on: May 17, 2019, 02:17:47 PM »
I have a drivers side door with part number c4zb-13064-A and am looking for a replacement. Now I see one being sold that looks good but the part number on it is c4zb-13064-C. What is the difference between them?
Also I acquired a replacement that has the same part number(-A) but the outside edge is completely curved while my original has a slight point that lines up with the horizontal ridge on the fender. Did Ford use different ones with identical part numbers on them?

65 Convertible born in Dearborn on Feb 10

Offline sgl66

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Re: 65 head light door
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2019, 11:31:19 PM »
I have a 13052-C (passenger side) that wouldn’t line up. I’m 99.9% sure I replaced it with a -A and it fit perfectly 20+ years ago. Most of the ones I’ve seen have the oval Ford logo, this has the older FoMoCo logo FWIW.

Maybe someone else will weigh in with more insight
66 GT 6T09K12---- scheduled Oct 14, bucked Oct 13 '65

Offline 196667Bob

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Re: 65 head light door
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2019, 08:28:22 PM »
Having a 1966, as well as my '67, this thread peaked my interest. However, before getting into details, we need to get a little nomenclature straightened out. What you have noted as a "Part Number", I am assuming (?) that you are getting that from the numbers cast into the back(inside) of the Headlight Door. These numbers are not Part Numbers. To explain further, there are basically three different numbers encountered with parts. First is the number given the part when it is designed. This is also called the Engineering Number (also the Factory Part Number or Assembly Line Part Number). Second is the Casting Number. This is the number (not a part number) either cast into, stamped into, printed on, or printed on a sticker applied to, the part. Many times, although not always, these are the same as the Engineering Part Number. And finally, is the Service Part Number. This is the number that is assigned to the part to be stocked in the Dealers' Parts Departments for use in servicing parts after the car left the Factory. The Service Part Number is what is most commonly meant when people refer to "Part Numbers", unless "Engineering" is added, or unless "casting number"  is specified (note here that only "casting number" is correct, not "casting part number".

That all being said, back to the issue at point. Being curious about which casting numbers my 66 had, I knew that I still had my originals (which show evidence of the car's original Ivy Green color in the form of overspray inside of the Headlight Door. When I purchased my 66 from its second owner in 1976, it exhibited no evidence of having been repainted. I looked at the casting numbers and they were C5ZB-13064-C (LH) and C5ZB-13052-C (RH). I then went to my 1966 Electrical Assembly Manual (Headlight Doors are listed in the Electrical Assembly Manual rather than in the Body Assembly Manual as one might think), to see what the Engineering Number was shown as ; in this case, they were the same as the casting numbers, C5ZB-13064-C and C5ZB-13052-C. The appropriate drawing in the Electrical Assembly Manual was dated "3/30/66, Supersedes 12/11/64".   

I then checked the Part Numbers (Service Part Numbers) shown in my 1966 Parts & Accessories Catalog (single year MPC, if you will) ; C5ZZ-13064-B (RH) and C5ZZ-13064-A (LH).
Then, I remembered that some years ago (in the late 80's I believe), I had picked up a spare set of Headlight Doors. I was of course curious to see if they were the same. Interestingly, they are the C5ZB-13064-A/ C5ZB-13052-A casting number version. At some time after picking these up (I can't remember from a car or at a swap meet), I had bead blasted them and primed them, and put them away for the next "go around" on my 66, so they are easy to tell the difference from my originals.
The first thing I did was to check to see if both exhibited the slight "peak" to match the fender contour "peak" ; they did. Then I traced each onto the same 11 x 17 blank paper in different color inks (a little difficult since they are not flat). As best as I could tell, they were identical except the "-C's" appear to have a slightly longer length (1/32" to 3/32") toward the radiator on each side. I would think that the 1/32" side could be within "casting tolerance", but the 3/32" side would seem too much for that. Although, since I had to "rock" the casting to complete the tracing, it could just be my measurements.
Next, I looked at the back side of the casting on each. The "-A's" seem to be "beefier", with additional stiffeners around the perimeter, and slightly larger bosses for the attaching screws. However, in weighing each, the "-C's" were actually heavier by 3 ounces (1 lb - 6.4 oz vs 1 lb - 9.4 oz). I have attached pictures of both castings (remember, the red oxide primered ones are the "-A's").

My next question was "when did this change occur ?". Typically, like Engineering Numbers and Service Part Numbers, casting numbers' suffixes are alphabetical ; B after A, C after B, etc. Since I have neither the 1964-1/2 or the 1965 Electrical Assembly Manuals, I couldn't check either for the Engineering Numbers. So, I went to check on the Part Numbers. I checked my 1965 and 1966 single year MPC's (each printed in January of their respective years). Both showed the same Part Numbers of C5ZZ-13064-A & -B.

Next was to check my OSI (Obsolete-Superseded-Interchange) catalogs. Unfortunately, after January 1964 (before Mustangs were introduced), my next one is not until July of 1965. However, in the July 1965 OSI, it shows that C4ZZ-13064-A & -B were to be "mw" (mixed with) C5ZZ-13064-A & -B. Thus, we can only say that sometime between January 1964 and July 1965, the C4ZZ's were to be substituted with the C5ZZ's. Just a little more clarification before "moving on". Generally speaking, when a part is noted in the OSI catalogs as "mw", means that the part will function and fit the same as the part it is being "mixed with", but there may be some minor differences, particularly in appearance. If a part is shown as "r/b" (Replaced By), this usually means that the part is virtually identical to the part it is replacing, with possible "internal differences". In the specific case of the Headlight Doors, I really don't know why Ford chose to designate "mw" as opposed to "r/b", as, at least to me, they both appear to be identical from outward appearance.

I realize that the above doesn't really answer the questions as to why both fmr187 and sglbbs have/had seemingly opposite problems (possibly due to when the change occurred), and sglbbs car being an earlier build date and the "A's" still being used, and fmr187's being later requiring the "-C's" ?), but maybe it will lead to more information as to "why".

Finally, in order to make this comparison complete, it would be beneficial to this "story" if someone with the 1964-1/2 and 1965 Electrical Assembly Manuals would Post the Engineering Part Numbers shown in each for the Headlight Doors, along with the Date shown on those drawings.

I hope that I haven't confused the issue, but wanted to give my observations.

Bob
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 01:01:28 AM by 196667Bob »
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67
MCA 04909

Offline midlife

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Re: 65 head light door
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2019, 09:35:33 PM »
1966 Electrical Assembly Manual has C4ZB-13064-C and -13052-C (not a typo), date 3/30/66, supersedes 12/11/64
1965 Electrical Assembly Manual has C4ZB-13064-C and -13052-C (not a typo), no date.1964.5 Manual: Same as above, with date 10/23/64 supersedes 6/29/64
Not sure where you're finding your information, but mine came from the headlight aiming page.
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Offline sgl66

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Re: 65 head light door
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2019, 10:24:58 PM »

I realize that the above doesn't really answer the questions as to why both fmr187 and sglbbs have/had seemingly opposite problems (possibly due to when the change occurred), and sglbbs car being an earlier build date and the "A's" still being used, and fmr187's being later requiring the "-C's" ?), but maybe it will lead to more information as to "why".

Thanks for the very detailed summary. Just to be clear, the -C  I’m referring to was not original to my car. The right fender and headlight door had been replaced when I bought it. If I have time this weekend I’ll pull the drivers side which is original to establish what was used at that time in NJ plant
66 GT 6T09K12---- scheduled Oct 14, bucked Oct 13 '65

Offline 196667Bob

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Re: 65 head light door
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2019, 10:58:07 PM »
1966 Electrical Assembly Manual has C4ZB-13064-C and -13052-C (not a typo), date 3/30/66, supersedes 12/11/64
1965 Electrical Assembly Manual has C4ZB-13064-C and -13052-C (not a typo), no date.1964.5 Manual: Same as above, with date 10/23/64 supersedes 6/29/64
Not sure where you're finding your information, but mine came from the headlight aiming page.

Randy : You are of course correct. I just got confused with all of the numbers and typed in incorrect ones for the RH casting and Engineering numbers.
I have corrected my mistakes.

Thanks for catching that. Also that I inadvertently put in some C7's that should have been C5's.

And thanks for the 64-1/2 and 65 info. That seems to say that the C4ZZ part numbers were very short lived.

Bob
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 12:59:37 AM by 196667Bob »
1966 Coupe, C Code, 3 Sp MT, 6T07C154XXX, Build Date 11/22/65
1967 Conv, C Code, C4, 7F03C154XXX, Actual Build Date 01/31/67
MCA 04909

Offline jwc66k

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Re: 65 head light door
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2019, 12:37:22 AM »
What you have noted as a "Part Number", I am assuming (?) that you are getting that from the numbers cast into the back(inside) of the Headlight Door. These numbers are not Part Numbers. To explain further, there are basically three different numbers encountered with parts. First is the number given the part when it is designed. This is also called theNu Engineering Number (also the Factory Part Number or Assembly Line Part Number). Second is the Casting Number. This is the number (not a part number) either cast into, stamped into, printed on, or printed on a sticker applied to, the part. Many times, although not always, these are the same as the Engineering Part Number. And finally, is the Service Part Number. This is the number that is assigned to the part to be stocked in the Dealers' Parts Departments for use in servicing parts after the car left the Factory.
Bob,
Please DO NOT CONFUSE THE ISSUE. Those are all part numbers.
One more time:
What numbers were used by engineering to design an item, aka part?
What numbers were used to order that item?
What numbers were used to receive that item?
What numbers were used to inspect that item?
What numbers were used to stock that item?
What numbers were used to issue that item to the assembly line?
There are many examples of "engineering" numbers on build sheets in full or abbreviated form (plus color codes).
So far all those numbers were to describe an item that was under engineering's control - aka an engineering number. Service did its own thing.

Another excerpt:
You were "indoctrinated" by Ford to use service numbers to order customer service parts from the Ford Car Parts manuals (aka MPC - now online). Some of the part numbers listed in the MPC are in the format of engineering part numbers, but the parts guy does not care, the customer does not care, Ford does not care. Then part goes in the customer's car, the customer pays Ford, all is well. The customer does not see the part number. On this forum, it is IMPORTANT that all forum members understand the Ford part number system - actually systems - and can tell the difference. Part number questions are asked. I explained the what and why.
Jim
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