Author Topic: Holley (R) Vacuum Secondary Diaphragm Assemblies Are Not All The Same.  (Read 3481 times)

Offline Dan Case

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
Holley (R) Vacuum Secondary Diaphragm Assemblies Are Not All The Same.

1) Original assembly line production parts and genuine Holley brand service parts.
I will avoid the fine original assembly line parts details for now but functionally be aware that there were multiple models of vacuum secondary diaphragm assemblies used in 4150/4160 series carburetors made between the mid 1950s and 1960s (and beyond) that come to play in various Ford powered vehicles.  A critical dimension was the quoted length of the operating rod. Three lengths of rods were used in a variety of popular 1950s through 1960s and beyond Ford-Holley carburetors: 2.047 inch, 2.054 inch, and 1.970 inch.

It is very important to use the model (a.k.a. length of rod) diaphragm assembly that was designed for a specific carburetor.  Failure to use the correct length for a carburetor design can lead to issues with the secondary throttle subsystem.

The last two Shelby car related carburetors out of high cost "restorations" I serviced prior to use for friends both had the same problem. Both units had longer than original rods in them and neither secondary system would open beyond about 80%.  That is they would have never opened all the way on a running engine of any size. The longer than stock rods mechanically prevented the secondary shaft from turning any more towards full wide open throttle.

The quick check on the work bench is the distance from the big disc's face to the center line of the pin hole. (My picture of this 1960s new old stock part is not that great but you get the idea I am sure.)


The Holley carburetors I work on the most are the R-3259/R-3259-1 families of carburetors 1964-1967. This family was designed to use the 1.970 inch long rod.  The recent 1967 GT350 carburetor I serviced after its expensive "restoration" had an aftermarket diaphragm assembly with a 2.029 inch long rod! That is 3% too long for a critical part. The rubber membrane was also stiffer and thicker also, more on this topic next. (Teaser: The secondaries as received would not move during testing, would not move even with some finger help on the lever. With a longer than stock rod and wrong rubber the secondaries might as well have been welded shut.)

2) Aftermarket replacement diaphragm assemblies. 
There have been and still are multiple makers of replacement assemblies.  Any rebuild kit or parts not sourced through Holley is likely to have somebody's replacement secondary diaphragm assembly in it. I find two issues with aftermarket diaphragm assemblies;  a) rod lengths may or may not match anything provided by Holley and b) some have had and still have significantly different rubber membranes.

The errors in rod lengths are straight forward. The rubber membrane might be less obvious unless you specifically check what you have in your hand. The rubber stock used in genuine Holley parts back when and now measures 0.020 inch thick nominally. The rubber compound is also very soft and compliant.  It is fairly common to find aftermarket parts made with stiff rubber 0.025 inch or more thick. 0.020 inch to 0.025 inch in thickness is a 25% increase in rubber thickness.  Thicker rubber is stiffer and then add to that to a stiffer rubber compound and some aftermarket diaphragms will never start secondary operation on any size engine.   

GT350 wise 1965-67, add rod too long, rubber too thick, and rubber too hard and it is no surprise some users find their secondaries never seem to do anything.

Note:  Having secondary diaphragm assemblies incorrect in any way is a problem set.  Over time the vacuum secondary housing may have been replaced by an incorrect version, models with check ball might be missing the ball or the ball might be the wrong size, you might have the correct housing but somebody made modifications to the passage, ball seat, and or air bleed if applicable.  Last but not least, somebody may have modified (cut or stretched) the original diaphragm spring or installed weaker or stronger springs. I have found all these problems in used carburetors, even "restored" ones.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 12:55:54 PM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline CharlesTurner

  • Charles Turner
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7687
Thanks for posting, good info.
Charles Turner - MCA/SAAC Judge
Concours Mustang Forum Admin

Offline Bob Gaines

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 9360
Much appreciated important info that we didn't know that we didn't know. :o
Bob Gaines,Shelby enthusiast, Shelby collector , Shelby concours judge SAAC,MCA,Mid America Shelby

Offline Dan Case

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
You are welcome. I really dislike engines performing poorly because of issues in carburetion. Unfortunately looking great and performing great are different subjects. Several of us do not relish the idea of servicing a freshly "restored" carburetor but that seems to be one of the most common requests. Owners are starting to get the message that looking like a crown jewel does not have anything to do with function and many times not much in common to day one parts. Carburetion functional work is becoming a lost art. The people I once admired for making carburetors work as designed have all passed on now. Most of the next generation has passed also.

How bad can it be? I get carburetors coming out of "restorations" that would never be adjustable at idle much less move the car with any grace. About a year ago I serviced a carburetor for a 427 Cobra that was "restored" by a world famous company. The owner did not trust it as soon as he got it back. It was also loaded with new reproduction parts not like originals. He asked me to take a look. 35 plus man hours and more than $850 in correct parts and outside work (needed Drew's help on this one) later it was ready to use. 

Today, several decades later, original small parts are all but non-existent in new old stock form. I might buy four or five cores to get enough correct small parts to service an original 1960s carburetor. Countless common 1960s carburetors have been broken up into parts bins to keep rarer models going. Now even good cores to dismantle for parts is getting harder to do as sellers want maybe $250 for a core that has just a few small parts worth keeping.


The solution commercial "restorers" and remanufacturers have is to install new made replacement parts that are not like genuine 1960s assembly line parts.  Some of the replacement parts are okay but some are horrible. The new replacement throttle shafts that I have seen lately are terrible functionally and are easy to spot as modern made.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 05:22:27 PM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline J_Speegle

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24620
Thanks Dan
Jeff Speegle

Anything worth doing is worth doing concours ;)

Offline CT428CJ

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
 Do you have a cross reference for either the length or Holley Performance Parts PN for a 35-219A?
I see 135-3 listed at NPD but want to confirm.

Offline Dan Case

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
Do you have a cross reference for either the length or Holley Performance Parts PN for a 35-219A?
I see 135-3 listed at NPD but want to confirm.

1960s Part Number    / Rod Length
35R-219A   1.97
35R-199A   2.047
35R-235A   2.054



Holley(R) gives details on their website, I cut and pasted this.

"Vacuum Secondary Diaphragm ...
Rod length 1.97"
PART# 135-3"

I  normally buy Holley brand parts as required from Summit Racing(R). (I still measure rod lengths and rubber thickness to verify.)


« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 12:34:48 PM by Dan Case »
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline CT428CJ

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Quote
"Vacuum Secondary Diaphragm ...
Rod length 1.97"
PART# 135-3"

Thanks.

Offline Dan Case

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.

Offline dieseldave

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 44
Thanks Dan for taking the time to post this great info.

Offline Dan Case

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
Thanks Dan for taking the time to post this great info.

You are welcome.
Dan
1964 Cobra owner since 1983, Cobra crazy since I saw my first one in the mid 1960s in Huntsville, AL.