Topic: Help with Phosphate Coating List - San Jose1970 Mach 1, M Code

[Kdclem]

New Member here. I've tried to search for threads regarding Manganese phosphate coating and nothing comes up.  I'm looking to see if anyone might have a complete list of items that in deed received the phosphate coating.  I have documented the following:


Hood hinges & Springs
Hood latch
Shock Tower Mount
Engine Motor Mounts
Sway bar mounting plates
Shock mtg. plate
V-Belt Pulleys (not 100% sure)
Leaf Spring shackle & front anchor bolt
Pinion Cover
Rear Axle U-Bolts
Coil Mtg. Bracket
Strut Rods
Power Steering hose bracket((mtd. to lower shock tower lft. side)
Misc. Hardware

If there are existing threads that I can't find please let me know
Thank you.

[J_Speegle]

Number of things we can discuss - are you interested in the finished look  or what might be the finish of the metal under the paint in some situations

Not sure your source of documentation - hopefully it has not bee restored cars. I find 70 San Jose cars pretty difficult since there are very few out there and allot of them have been restored away from the west coast and the details copied from cars built at Dearborn often. Currently we only have one unrestored picture thread with a 70 San Jose car and it was not cleaned to a point where you can make out allot of finishes

Will post a little later some more just wanted to post a start to the discussion. IMHO there are a fair number of items in your list that were not phosphated and some individually have been discussed and are the same as other plants but it will be good going forward.

There are also restorers that phosphate then tumble parts to get them to the look they are aiming for even though the part was not originally phosphated and this can lead to some confusion at times for those reading those posts and threads.

Also welcome to the site - Hope you find the information and the support here helpful in your restoration.

[67gtasanjose]

New Member here. I've tried to search for threads regarding Manganese phosphate coating and nothing comes up.  I'm looking to see if anyone might have a complete list of items that in deed received the phosphate coating.  I have documented the following:


Hood hinges & Springs
Hood latch
Shock Tower Mount
Engine Motor Mounts
Sway bar mounting plates
Shock mtg. plate
V-Belt Pulleys (not 100% sure)
Leaf Spring shackle & front anchor bolt
Pinion Cover
Rear Axle U-Bolts
Coil Mtg. Bracket
Strut Rods
Power Steering hose bracket((mtd. to lower shock tower lft. side)
Misc. Hardware

If there are existing threads that I can't find please let me know
Thank you.

...Also welcome to the site - Hope you find the information and the support here helpful in your restoration.

+1

Great seeing you came aboard Kevin.  You will find that members here (especially Jeff) will be invaluable help, like none you will find over in FB forums.

[J_Speegle]

Let me give this a try  - at least the easier individual pieces first then follow up with the others that should take a little more checking. For others viewing this remember this is for 1970 and cars built at San Jose

- Hood hinges & Springs - Yes

- Hood latch - Agree

- Shock Tower Mount - If your referring to the front upper shock mount/bracket (sometimes referred to as the beehive) it's final finish was semigloss black typically at San Jose

- Engine Motor Mounts - Don't believe so. The small L shaped section was semigloss black and the main body was fresh new steel with fresh bluing around the welds

- Sway bar mounting plates - Guess this is the rear sway bar mounting plates. Will check to see what I can find

- Shock mtg. plate - Guess your describing the rear shock, spring and rear end housing plate that the rearend U bolts pass through. Don't believe it was originally phosphated though some restorers today choose to reproduce the original look by plating then tumbling. On the west coast they are often unpitted and in nice condition so restoring them to bare steel with slightly brighter edges where the metal was stretched and bent is a bit easier without the plating and tumbling

-  V-Belt Pulleys (not 100% sure) - Not sure what pulleys your referring to. Engine pulleys such as water pump, power steering and crankshaft were painted with semigloss black.

- Leaf Spring shackle & front anchor bolt The rear spring shackle would have been new bare steel with hardened (dark) shafts welded in place. As for front anchor bolts I want to double check the finish

- Pinion Cover - Are you referring to the snuber bracket? Attaches to the pinion retainer bolts and positions a snubber/rubber bumper above the pinion that can make contact with the bracket welded to the floor of the car. If so, same answer as in Shock mtg. plate  above

- Rear Axle U-Bolts - Checking

- Coil Mtg. Bracket - Yes but not the thin long bolt and nut

- Strut Rods - Restorers again often plate them to emulate the original look of dark heat treated steel. Basically the same process as front and rear springs, spindles, steering linkage that made the parts very strong.

- Power Steering hose bracket((mtd. to lower shock tower lft. side) - Will see if I can find a picture of two


Hope this helps as a start

[Kdclem]

Thank you Jeff,

It's a lot of work and research to figure out how to put it back to original.  I would like to do the job correctly so I can work on my next Mustang instead of redoing work already completed.  Like you say, "if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right the first time".

[Bob Gaines]

Rear axle U bolts are typically bare steel. The strut rods are typically bare steel from what I have found on survivor cars and with all of the numerous NOS service part strut rods I have ever had. Others may think differently.

[jwc66k]

I've tried to search for threads regarding Manganese phosphate coating and nothing comes up. 

Look in the "Processes, Products & Techniques" section under topic "Phospating 101". It does not tell you what, but it does tell you how.
Jim

[Bob Gaines]

Also study what the part finish should look like when done because the Manganese phosphate typically comes out much darker then the zinc phosphate. Some parts were not that dark others were.

[Kdclem]

Not trying to complicate my post about the phosphate coating, but in my attempt to understand and gain knowledge I read the post from 2009 .....MCA Judging - General Information  (Read 13148 times).  Very informative and highlights some of the questions I had about "what get's phosphate coating?".

I've also been reading another document that may have been written by the owners of this forum.  You can find it here  https://www.carmemories.com/cgi-bin/viewexperience.cgi?experience_id=215  The section on "9. UNDERCARRIAGE, SUSPENSION AND EXHAUST" 

The following provides some clarifications:

- - - - - -
D. Suspension: The following suspension parts are to be natural: strut rods, idler arms, pitman, steering box, tie rods, drag links, strut washers, sway bar hardware, power steering control valve, steering cylinder, spring seats and spindles, rear leaf springs, shock plates and U-bolts.  So I ask a question - If you sand blast the spindles, linkage, steering box and other suspension parts (of course not the finished shaft) and spray with a cast iron color to preserve the steel and keep from rusting over time, is that okay?  Or is it subjective when a judge looks at your car?

Coil springs are black or natural. Upper and lower control arms may be all natural or may be black with ball joint ends natural. Sway bar is black.
------

I'm working on putting the car back together and focusing on the finish of certain parts, in this case, "what was phosphate coated?" so I can do one batch of parts and hope that I get them all.  Every time I read a new thread or find out another tid bit of info., the process becomes more complicated.  Just One Example - The rivets in the hood hinges are now a dichromite red, and that would be done after the phosphate and be okay to reproduce the color with a reasonable color match of paint that would be acceptable. I'm also reading that for the hood hinges and hood latch, Manganese is a darker finish than Zinc.  Is it subjective?  Which one is right?

To sum this up regarding colors, tones or finishes, (after reading from the two documents from above) the objective is to reproduce and color match to the best of our ability.  And to reproduce a finish with paint is okay, as long as it meets a judges standard of what was original to the car, and looks good, and paint not chipping away from age or poor workmanship.  That fact is subjective but I'm okay with it.

Thank you all for your input.

[Bob Gaines]

Not trying to complicate my post about the phosphate coating, but in my attempt to understand and gain knowledge I read the post from 2009 .....MCA Judging - General Information  (Read 13148 times).  Very informative and highlights some of the questions I had about "what get's phosphate coating?".

I've also been reading another document that may have been written by the owners of this forum.  You can find it here  https://www.carmemories.com/cgi-bin/viewexperience.cgi?experience_id=215  The section on "9. UNDERCARRIAGE, SUSPENSION AND EXHAUST" 

The following provides some clarifications:

- - - - - -
D. Suspension: The following suspension parts are to be natural: strut rods, idler arms, pitman, steering box, tie rods, drag links, strut washers, sway bar hardware, power steering control valve, steering cylinder, spring seats and spindles, rear leaf springs, shock plates and U-bolts.  So I ask a question - If you sand blast the spindles, linkage, steering box and other suspension parts (of course not the finished shaft) and spray with a cast iron color to preserve the steel and keep from rusting over time, is that okay?  Or is it subjective when a judge looks at your car?

Coil springs are black or natural. Upper and lower control arms may be all natural or may be black with ball joint ends natural. Sway bar is black.
------

I'm working on putting the car back together and focusing on the finish of certain parts, in this case, "what was phosphate coated?" so I can do one batch of parts and hope that I get them all.  Every time I read a new thread or find out another tid bit of info., the process becomes more complicated.  Just One Example - The rivets in the hood hinges are now a dichromite red, and that would be done after the phosphate and be okay to reproduce the color with a reasonable color match of paint that would be acceptable. I'm also reading that for the hood hinges and hood latch, Manganese is a darker finish than Zinc.  Is it subjective?  Which one is right?

To sum this up regarding colors, tones or finishes, (after reading from the two documents from above) the objective is to reproduce and color match to the best of our ability.  And to reproduce a finish with paint is okay, as long as it meets a judges standard of what was original to the car, and looks good, and paint not chipping away from age or poor workmanship.  That fact is subjective but I'm okay with it.

Thank you all for your input.

I understand your frustration. You will have to endure and sort through imperfect direction if you want reach the end. That is just the way it is (where have I heard that before) . The color match if using paint to replicate non painted finish's is supposed to represent a reasonable look compared to the unpainted correct finish. The judgment will most likely vary from one concours judge to another depending on their expectations.  Referring to your hood hinge example ,the rivet heads were color coded (size?) when new however once stamped/compressed the color or evidence of color rarely survived. A color there is not expected by judges however if one chooses to go that route then the color and the amount of color better be consistent with what others have seen on the rare examples. Reasonable documentation my be of benefit to substantiate a out of the ordinary look.   Sometimes less is more  .  I have seen a green color on a few rare examples but not dichromate red. But that is just me.

[J_Speegle]

Not trying to complicate my post about the phosphate coating, but in my attempt to understand and gain knowledge I read the post from 2009 .....MCA Judging - General Information  (Read 13148 times).  Very informative and highlights some of the questions I had about "what get's phosphate coating?".

I've also been reading another document that may have been written by the owners of this forum.  You can find it here  https://www.carmemories.com/cgi-bin/viewexperience.cgi?experience_id=215  The section on "9. UNDERCARRIAGE, SUSPENSION AND EXHAUST" 

The following provides some clarifications:.....

Yes a number of members here had input into that original document but please understand that was over ten years old and didn't often spell out differences between production periods, assembly plants and different suppliers. There are often limits and restrictions put on what can be included in the documents. Often they are limitied to what the authors could get through the process - "a large ship turns slowly". This leaves additional details and insight often out of the final printed documents.

Plenty of good information but the challenge is (like all resources) figuring out what to take away from the text and what  no longer correct or what was a mistaken view at the time. Especially a dated example. We learn stuff all the time.

IMHO and it has served owners and builders well over the year. Build the best car you can - rather than building it to a set of rules. You will be rewarded and your will likely be ahead of the learning curve as rules, judges and organizations improve over time. 

[MorganLeBlanc]

On a similar note was there any gold zink parts or bolts on 69/70 Mustangs, like shock tower brace bolts?

[Bob Gaines]

On a similar note was there any gold zink parts or bolts on 69/70 Mustangs, like shock tower brace bolts?

Besides the cowl brace bolts the cowl ground screws ,block ground bolts,firewall screws, solenoid ,regulator and toothed washers,carb nuts are some that come to mind in the engine compartment .

[jwc66k]

On a similar note was there any gold zink parts or bolts on 69/70 Mustangs, like shock tower brace bolts?

In this forum's library, you will find a topic titled - "Mustang Hardware Spreadsheet 69-70". There are two files, one by Ford hardware part number, the other by application. The second column has finish information, -S36 being gold zinc. With a little extra effort, you can create a sort that lists all the gold zinc, -S36, clear zinc, -S8, and all the phosphate finishes, -S2 and -S4. That should answer your questions.
Jim

[MorganLeBlanc]

Thanks! Very helpful.