ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1967 Mustang => Topic started by: kkupec02 on May 01, 2020, 09:13:10 AM
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The person who had car before me jammed on a steering wheel nut and wrecked the threads of the steering wheel spline that I have to redo. I got 2 nuts from NPD which were advertised as the correct 5/8-18. I only have tap and die sets up to 1/2 inch so bought a 5/8-18 tap and die. The nuts came in and the 5/8-18 die doesn't work in them. I bought 2 nuts in case I had to make one of them into a die, but would prefer to use a die manufactured for that purpose. I guess I could always go to Home Depot and test fit some bolts into the NPD nuts. Anyone know what the size of those nuts are? Thanks.
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Sorry, should have clarified that I would need the thread count as well as the nut size. Thanks
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The nut is 15/16". The thread is 5/8 -11NC
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The die you specified is correct for the 67 Mustang steering shaft. (5/8 UNF 18 TPI.)
So the nut would be the same (5/8 UNF 18 TPI.)
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The OD and ID is correct the way NPD lists it. The thread count listed by NPD of 18 doesn't easily fit the 5/8-18 tap without actually re threading it. I believe that the thread count may not be 18. I'll try the 11 mentioned above. But, I guess it's best to try some 5/8 thread sizes at Home Depot.
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Actually, I am using a tap and die 5/8-18 NC. Is there a 5/8-18 NF that I should be using? I thought NF and NC could be ignored if the thread count was listed as 18.
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Double check the TPI count as 5/8 NC will have 11 TPI therefore causing your problem.
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I just measured two here and they are 18 threads per inch
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I just measured two here and they are 18 threads per inch
Thank you for confirming part of the specification of the "Steering Wheel Nut" that Ford used. Of course you could have looked in the library under Mustang Hardware Spreadsheet 67-68 by application under "Steering Wheel-Shaft" and found the part number, thread diameter, thickness, wrench size, finish and a couple of other trivial items.
The person who had car before me jammed on a steering wheel nut and wrecked the threads of the steering wheel spline that I have to redo.
You might need to use a small watch file to dress up the threads. It's a tedious task but may be necessary.
Jim
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If buggered up you can use a thread chaser to dress it before using the die. I find these more affective than a small file
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All Steering Wheel Nuts for 1967 Mustangs (and for many years before and after) were Hardware Part Number 350983-S, This is a 5/8-18 nut, which requires a 15/16" wrench or socket. It is a plain(bare steel) finish. It is unique in that a "standard" 5/8-18 nut is 35/64" thick, but the steering wheel nut is only 5/16" thick.
It should be torqued to 20-30 ft-lbs, The Assembly Manual notes to add 2 drops of thread locker after torquing, to the juncture of the threads and nut.
Bob
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Thanks. I saw in the library the 18 TPI, but the 18 TPI doesn't work. Therefore my issue. I went to Home Depot and tried the nut on 11 TPI and 18 TPI to no avail. They had no other threads to try. The nut must be "off" a little for the 18 TPI die to catch. I guess I'll have to take one of the nuts from NPD and take a slice out of it making my own die. Not as effective as a regular die though.
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I would do as John suggested, and use the thread chaser. The shaft and nut are and should be, 5/8-18. There is no other option. Making a different thread risks the steering wheel coming off. I don't think you want that to happen.
Bob
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+1 chase the threads. Then finish off with the die. Thread chasers are not hard to come by nor are they expensive.
The difference between 11 and 18 TPI is night and day
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Thanks. I have a 5/8-18 NC tap and die that I realize doesn't work. I'll look for a 5/8-18 NF to see if that does the trick. I thought that with 18 per inch, there was only one choice, NC. But, evidently not the case. The library and NPD just mentions 5/8-18.
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Oops, 5/8-11 is a National Coarse Thread - aka NC, 5/8-18 ia a National Fine Thread - aka NF. There is also a 5/8-24, National Extra Fine - NEF.
Don't get confused. I had to look it up to make sure. Its been 55 years since I took a Graphics course.
Jim
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Oops, 5/8-11 is a National Coarse Thread - aka NC, 5/8-18 ia a National Fine Thread - aka NF. There is also a 5/8-24, National Extra Fine - NEF.
Don't get confused...
I agree +1
The way NC & NF can change in thread count, depends on the diameter size of the item so always best to look at a chart.
More confusing in the metric sector but LETS NOT go down that rabbit hole!
I use one of these thread gauges to determine what I have when I am not sure. I have both SAE and Metric ones since I work on cars for a living. Nothing more frustrating than the GM cars with a mixture of SAE on engine blocks with Metric on their brackets...1967 Fords were easy, set up in a conventional manner using only NC or NF yet mostly NC.
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Thanks. I have a 5/8-18 NC tap and die that I realize doesn't work. I'll look for a 5/8-18 NF to see if that does the trick.
To be perfectly clear, you don't have a 5/8-18 NC (national course) tap and die because those do not exist. Are you sure you are reading it correctly?
As others stated, there are two "common" designs, national course and national fine. For 5/8", the course thread count is 11 per inch, whereas the fine is 18 threads per inch.
1. The shaft thread size is 5/8"-18
2. If the threads are really messed up, you should dress them with an 18 threads per inch thread chaser, then
3. If needed (if the thread chaser alone did not resolve the problem), follow up with your 5/8"-18 die
A picture or two would help.
But seriously, rather than try to force the die to grab correctly and stay properly aligned, the thread chaser is the right tool for this job, based on what I've read.
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Jut in case there is ANY doubt . . .
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I took the old NPD nut that the prior owner used to strip the spline and the two new NPD nuts to Home Depot and NONE fit the 5/8-18 bolt display like they should. I think the problem with all of my confusion is that these nuts are supposed to be the correct 5/8-18, but they are not. I'll use a thread chaser and a thread restore die which I guess is less aggressive than a regular die on the shaft and look for an original NOS nut which I know will be right. Thanks all. Sorry for you having to put up with my confusion. NPD is usually a good source.
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I took the old NPD nut that the prior owner used to strip the spline and the two new NPD nuts to Home Depot and NONE fit the 5/8-18 bolt display like they should. I think the problem with all of my confusion is that these nuts are supposed to be the correct 5/8-18, but they are not. I'll use a thread chaser and a thread restore die which I guess is less aggressive than a regular die on the shaft and look for an original NOS nut which I know will be right. Thanks all. Sorry for you having to put up with my confusion. NPD is usually a good source.
I would not hold out for a NOS nut given that there are millions of perfectly good used nuts still out there .Most likely some on good donor steering columns and or in loose hardware piles. I just didn't want to see you limiting yourself. They are very common. The biggest problem you will have is getting someone to go through the effort to find that single small piece and send it to you IMO. If there is something at a used parts vendor like West Coast Cougar (a forum member) that you could bundle the steering nut request with I believe you would have easier success. Best of luck in your search.
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A picture or two would help.
Yes. You "may" have the correct part and the shaft is really "dinged up".
I got 2 nuts from NPD which were advertised as the correct 5/8-18.
NPD does not make anything they sell. They mostly buy their items from distributors. The real question is what was the marking on the package you got from them? NPD does buy a lot of their hardware from AMK.
The nut is question, 350983-S, was used on steering column shafts from 64 thru 67 as unfinished (-S), and used on 64 thru 66 trunk locks as clear zinc (-S8). It is as Bob stated, "millions of perfectly good used nuts still out there" (service replacements were different).
So, let's see what cha got".
Jim
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kkupec02 : I believe you have the right approach by using the thread chaser first, and then the thread restorer die. After that, try the NPD nut. I find it hard to believe that the threads on it aren't correct (Rick, you may want to chime in here). Do not expect to put the nut on the steering shaft and "spin" it on like a standard nut and bolt. In over 55 years of working on my dozen or more Fords, junk-yarding many, etc., I don't remember ever being able to spin a steering wheel nut on or off. This may be that they had tighter thread tolerance than standard nuts and bolts. Just be sure you have the nut square when starting it, and then use your ratchet.
As for not being able to thread the NPD nuts on ones at Home Depot, the problem may be in taking a nut which may have a tighter than normal thread tolerance and trying to thread it on to a bolt that has been electro-zinc plated, which would reduce the tolerance even more, instead of a bare steel thread, like the steering column shaft. Just a possibility.
As Bob noted, these original nuts are a "dime a dozen", having been used on all Fords from at least the early 50's through the 70's. A junk yard having any of those years should yield plenty.
In just a quick look, it does look like DEnnis Carpenter may have as many as 9, NOS ones, but be sure to specift you want NOS ones, as they probably also have repos.
Bob
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I recommend not running a tap through the nut. It is a self locking nut, so it will not free spin on a properly threaded bolt or on the steering shaft. The nut is manufactured, threaded, then "pinched" slightly to make it self locking.
You can run the die on the shaft to clean it up.
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I recommend not running a tap through the nut.
You can run the die on the shaft to clean it up.
Good advice.
It is a self locking nut, so it will not free spin on a properly threaded bolt or on the steering shaft. The nut is manufactured, threaded, then "pinched" slightly to make it self locking.
The nut in question, 350983-S (used for 1964 thru 67), is not a locking type in any documentation I've seen. The nut used in 1968 thru 73, 382412-S100, is a locking type.
Jim
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Interesting. I had no idea they introduced the locking feature in 1968. If that is the case a tap would not hurt it but a brand new nut should not need anything except installation.
Good advice.The nut in question, 350983-S (used for 1964 thru 67), is not a locking type in any documentation I've seen. The nut used in 1968 thru 73, 382412-S100, is a locking type.
Jim
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This is what I got from NPD. The nuts won't go on a Home Depot 5/8-18 bolt. I have an NOS one on the way thanks to 67gta289. Crossing my fingers
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While we have pretty well covered the size of the Steering Wheel Nut thread, little more has been noted in regard to other Specifications. To try to expand on what has been noted, I decided to do a little "in depth research on Steering Wheel Nuts. In order to document this, I used the following of my resources ; 1967 Mustang Factory Chassis Assembly Manual (my 1957,1959 and 1966 Assembly Manuals do not include Chassis); 1949-59, 1960-64, 1960-68, 1965-72 and 1973-77 Ford Master Parts Catalogs ; single year Ford Parts and Accessories Catalogs (MPC's) from 1955 through 1967 ; and 1954, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1965, 1966, 1969 and 1975 Ford Standard Parts and Utility Catalogs. In order to try to make somewhat logical sense of all of the information, I put it into a spreadsheet (copy attached).
A few comments and items of interest in regard to my findings :
1) All Part Numbers shown are Service Part Numbers. Just happens to be that the
1967 Assembly Manual (Factory) Part Number is the same. Other applications/
years may or may not be the same as the Service Part Numbers.
2) All Steering Wheel Nuts listed have 5/8-18, NF thread.
3) All Steering Wheel Nuts listed require a 15/16" Socket/Wrench.
4) A "Standard" 5/8-18 Hex Nut has a thickness(height) of 35/64" ; a "Standard"
5/8-18 Hex Jam nut has a thickness(height) of 3/8".
5) A "Check Nut" is also known as a "Lock Nut, and/or "Jam Nut", depending on
its use.
6) A "Prevailing Torque Locknut", I believe, is one with "distorted" threads,
similar to what RoyceP described in Reply # 23.
7) Between the mid-sixties and early 90's, I removed around three dozen 1957-59
Steering Wheels ; I do not ever remember any of the Nuts being "Raven" ; only
Plain.
8) Interestingly, the "Flex-top Locknuts" shown for 1965-66 Mustangs in the
1960-68 and 1965-72 MPC's, do not appear in either the 1965 or 1966 "Single
Year" MPC's. Possibly it was decided after Production that a "Flex-Top Lock-
Nut" would be better ? Since it has been over 35 years since I have had the
Steering Wheel off of my '66, I don't remember, nor did I pay any attention at
the time, as to the type of nut.
Since there is no 1966 Chassis Assembly Manual, and I don't have
a 1965 (which may not help if the change was late), there is no help there.
It would be interesting to see if anyone with a known, or "believed to be"
Original 1965 or 66 has, or has seen one with the Flex-Top Locknut.
9) As Jim noted in his Reply #24, there is no documentation of a "locking nut"
until 1968 (although a "Check Nut" may be considered as one). Like I
mentioned in my Reply #22, on the 1957-59 Fords, I cannot remember ever being able to "spin" a Steering Wheel Nut on like one would with a standard
bolt and nut. I found this to be the case also on my 1967. Makes me wonder ,
since these nuts are listed separately from "Standard Hex Nuts", besides the
thickness, is there also a difference in thread tolerance ; or distorted threads ?
Another possibility, was the threaded end of the Steering Shaft tapered, similar
to that of a pipe thread ? What makes me think of this possibility, is that about
a year ago, I had to move my 1959 Ford Retractable temporarily from its
storage location so that security could be enhanced. I had forgotten that I had
removed its Steering Wheel, and had apparently not left the nut with it. I went
to my local fastener supplier and purchased a 5/8-18 jam nut. After stating the
nut on the shaft for a few threads (to be sure that the threads meshed correctly),
it became hard to turn. I used my 1/2" ratchet with a 15/16 socket, and
eventually was able to get it to tighten against the hub.
It would be very interesting to see the Engineering Drawings for the Steering
Wheel nuts and Shafts.
10) In regard to the locking nuts used from 1968-77, 382412-S, it is interesting
this Part Number does not appear in the 1969 or 1975 Standard and Utility
Parts Catalog. Only the 382412-S100 shows up. Only 382412-S100 (Special)
and 382412-S4 (Raven and Black Paint) are listed. Was the "-S" Assembly
Line only ?
11) Finally, I have attached copies of pages from Standard Parts and Utility
Catalogs that show illustrations and specifications for the four different nuts
noted on the spreadsheet.
I trust that all of this won't drive you "nuts".
Bob
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I used the following of my resources ; 1967 Mustang Factory Chassis Assembly Manual (my 1957,1959 and 1966 Assembly Manuals do not include Chassis); 1949-59, 1960-64, 1960-68, 1965-72 and 1973-77 Ford Master Parts Catalogs ; single year Ford Parts and Accessories Catalogs (MPC's) from 1955 through 1967 ; and 1954, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1965, 1966, 1969 and 1975 Ford Standard Parts and Utility Catalogs. In order to try to make somewhat logical sense of all of the information, I put it into a spreadsheet (copy attached).
1) All Part Numbers shown are Service Part Numbers. Just happens to be that the
1967 Assembly Manual (Factory) Part Number is the same. Other applications/
years may or may not be the same as the Service Part Numbers.
You did not refer to the 64-65 Mustang Chassis Assembly manual. 350983-S is on page 44.
4) A "Standard" 5/8-18 Hex Nut has a thickness(height) of 35/64" ; a "Standard"
5/8-18 Hex Jam nut has a thickness(height) of 3/8".
Define "standard".
(10) In regard to the locking nuts used from 1968-77, 382412-S, it is interesting this Part Number does not appear in the 1969 or 1975 Standard and Utility Parts Catalog. Only the 382412-S100 shows up. Only 382412-S100 (Special) and 382412-S4 (Raven and Black Paint) are listed. Was the "-S" Assembly Line only ?
Service parts are just that - service. Ford dealerships could not possible stock every single hardware item used on the their assembly lines. That there are two finishes referenced does not take into account that the same nut was used on other Ford, Mercury or Ford trucks, in different applications. For that reason you cannot use any year or edition of Ford Car Parts to determine an assembly line item. The best you can get is "confirmation" or thread size, although I can show you a couple of "discrepancies" about thread sizes.
Sorry for the rant. ;)
Jim
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Jim : While a "rave" would have been better than a "rant", at least I know that someone with some "hardware knowledge" has at least looked at what I presented.
In case others may have not read my comments closely, I offer the following responses "
1) The reason that I did not refer to the 1964-65 Chassis Assembly Manual is because, as I noted in my #8 comment, I don't have it. I will add the information you provided in a future revision.
2) The "standard" I refer to in my comment #4, is ASME B18.2.2. This would be for a Grade 5, hex nut that one would purchase for general use from a fastener supplier like Fastenal, McMaster-Carr, etc.
3) As far as Assembly Line versus Service Parts, I thought that I explained that adequately in my very first comment.
Hope this addresses your questions.
Bob
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While a "rave" would have been better than a "rant",
Next time - both.
1) The reason that I did not refer to the 1964-65 Chassis Assembly Manual is because, as I noted in my #8 comment, I don't have it. I will add the information you provided in a future revision.
You made a lot of words without all the available information. The 67 Chassis does call 350983-S as does the 64 and 65. I've noticed a peculiarity in the Chassis Assembly Manuals, they often do not use the finish codes, but apparently rely on the inventory people to put the right bucket on the line for use.
The 60-68 Ford Car Parts manual, Section 35, shows that 64 thru 67 service uses 350983-S (no finish shown, it's part of Ford Locator Code designation, MM-38-B, included in its documentation).
2) The "standard" I refer to in my comment #4, is ASME B18.2.2. This would be for a Grade 5, hex nut that one would purchase for general use from a fastener supplier like Fastenal, McMaster-Carr, etc.
I don't think that Ford would use a grade 5 nut when the specs say grade 2.
Ford specified 5/8- 11 and 5/8-18 nuts are classified as:
"regular" - 0.535-0.559 inch thick:
"thick" - 0.706-0.731 inch thick;
"jam" - 0.363-0.387 inch thick;
All are grade 2.
The one specified for 64 thru 67, 350986-S, is a special thickness, 0.312 inch, and is a grade 2
Note: It's thinner than the "jam" nut, probably to provide some additional clearance with the horn spring and turn signal switch.
Jim
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Jim : I didn't address the 1967 Mustang Steering Wheel Nut in my comments because I( had noted it on my spreadsheet as being shown both in the 67 Assembly Manual, and in the MPC's. I agree, and have also found that typically, the Assembly Manuals seem to only show an "S", and not a specific finish number. Also, that typically, the MPC'sd do typically show the complete finish number ; in the case of the 350983, the "-S" only.
Interesting that Section 35 (which I didn't look at) shows the 350983-S for 65-66 Mustangs, while Section 36 shows the 371530-S7 ?? Both pages are dated June, 1968.
Finally, the ASME spec I mentioned also covers Grade 2 ; I just used Grade 5 as an example. My intent was to show that the thin Steering Wheel Nut was considerably different than a "normal" hardware nut that one would get at a Hardware Store (typically a "standard" hardware nut.
Where did you find the list of "regular", "thick", and "jam" thicknesses that Ford used ?
Bob