ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1967 Mustang => Topic started by: 67gta289 on May 03, 2019, 09:26:26 PM
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Working with Bob M (19667Bob) on a side job and while doing research we ran across another potential 67 change. I know, right?
Looking at the nuts that retain the taillight housings, I had made the claim that they were all pretty run of the mill hex nuts with captive star washers.
In looking through pictures of unrestored cars, like the one shown in picture T-4 here: http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=18570.0 I was confirming what I thought.
I probably have pictures of 100 cars like this. Bob was asking me about the 377523 listed in the assembly manual and shown in the attached MPC.
Then I ran across 7R02C116xxx (picture attached) which is a good example of the hardware used on the rare lower back panel grille option. But if you look closely at the driver's side taillight housing you will see the 377523 nuts.
I guess my next step is to comb through the files and see if this is an early/late thing.
I looked at 5 different 68's and they are all the hex/captive washer ones I would expect.
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Upon further review...it appears that the 377523 part number is in question. If you compare the MPC installation diagrams, both the standard and lower back panel grill option reference 377523.
We know that the standard nut is a hex nut with captive star/tooth washer.
The MPC, as well as the picture of 7R02C116xxx show that the nut used on the lower back panel grill as a completely different type of nut, even though the part number is the same.
Other than the -S and -S100 suffix, which should only represent the finish.
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Referencing the attached fastener document pictures, as well as the MPC and assembly manual, the 377523 is the correct number for the nut used on the lower back panel grille for attaching the taillight housing.
The correct number for standard installation would be 34653-S36 (zinc dichromate). The MPC has it wrong. If you Google search 377523 the parts shown are the standard nut with star/tooth washer, and that part number is not correct. I'll check the assembly manual later and provide an update.
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Jim, your spreadsheet is accurate in terms of part numbers, but I would suggest that two things need some work:
1. For the "TAILLIGHT HOUSING-BODY@TRUNK" nut, there are two line items. I've shown them in yellow in the attached picture. I believe that the 34653 to be correct, and the 381747 to be incorrect. If someone else will want to double check on my assessment that would be appreciated.
2. For the studs, shown in blue highlight, we are not sure of the part number for the standard bezel. You have 381680 listed for the optional lower back panel grille, which I agree with. Based on the Ford fastener manual, since there is only one type 35 stud listed, and therefore the only one with a thread size of #8-32, I think it is safe to start with the assumption that the lengths would not differ between the standard bezel and the optional panel. I'll do a bit more research on this later today.
Thanks again for the work on the spreadsheet. John
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John,
I've listed both, with appropriate cross references, as 381747-S100 is what Ford Engineering specified, and 34653-S8 as being the one found (i use MEA to indicate "Measured").
The stud, 381680-S36, is used on an optional tail light panel for 67 Mustangs only (other Ford uses are not determined) but is shown as being in the Ford Service Parts system as WW129 (ref 75 MPC Exterior Molding Illustrated Section F PG 2).
Jim
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I guess my next step is to comb through the files and see if this is an early/late thing.
I did just that - keeping to just San Jose just to keep a focus on a single plant.
Found no variation on cars without the optional rear taillight panel except for one car on half of one sides taillight and that car had, some place in the past, damage done to that rear area which likely explains the difference in the nuts used
Test sample below spanning from early to late examples
7R1067xx
7R1107xx
7R1244xx
7R1330xx
7R1394xx
7R1547xx
7R1598xx
7R1650xx
7R1669xx
7R1680xx
7R1748xx
7R1824xx
7R1848xx
7R1849xx
7R1883xx
7R2072xx
7R1974xx
7R1977xx
7R2068xx
7R2139xx
7R2345xx
(http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/gallery/12/6-040519153842.jpeg)
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Thanks Jeff, that was quick!
John,
I've listed both, with appropriate cross references, as 381747-S100 is what Ford Engineering specified, and 34653-S8 as being the one found (i use MEA to indicate "Measured").
The stud, 381680-S36, is used on an optional tail light panel for 67 Mustangs only (other Ford uses are not determined) but is shown as being in the Ford Service Parts system as WW129 (ref 75 MPC Exterior Molding Illustrated Section F PG 2).
Jim
Jim, I did a comparison of a standard bezel and the optional lower back panel grill. The bosses are the same length. Since the panel and housing is the same, I would think it is safe to assume that the studs are the same.
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I did a comparison of a standard bezel and the optional lower back panel grill.
John,
What are you calling "standard bezel"? I'm using the 67 Mustang Body Assembly Manual, AM0016 pg 36.
Point of info, I found the full length for 381680-S36 of 2 1/4 in documented in "Ford Standard and Utility Parts Catalog, January 1969, pg 84" and have updated my spreadsheet master file.
Jim
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Jim,
The standard chrome bezel (6 total) is part 13489
The lower back panel grille option (2 total) replace the standard bezels and fill up most of the rear panel.
Pictures included.
John
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The standard chrome bezel (6 total) is part 13489
The lower back panel grille option (2 total) replace the standard bezels and fill up most of the rear panel.
After seeing your source pictures it gets clearer. First, the stud, 381680-S36 is called out on the Mustang Body Assembly manual for the optional taillight panel only. You found the same stud used on the standard taillight assembly, however the stud is supplied with the complete standard taillight (your reference 13489, full servise part number is C7ZZ-13489-A - to 4/17/68, C7ZZ-13489-B after) and would not be shown in any engineering or service documentation.
Does that make sense?
Jim
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Yes, that makes sense. It is the same conclusion I came to.
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Yes, that makes sense. It is the same conclusion I came to.
John,
I will add your findings to the master spreadsheet and it will appear in the next release (when I finish some other additions).
Thanks,
Jim
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I parted out a 67 GT/A fastback years ago that had the rear panels and it had the same nuts as in the third photo of the original post. In fact most if not all of the factory installed rear panels I have seen had those type of nuts. The "standard" chrome bezels all have the nuts shown in Jeff's picture above. I installed those panels from that 67 on my 68 GT (I know not correct for 68 but it is my car and I like them!) Now as a sad side note......the 67 GT/A fastback they came from was rolled by the owners brother 2 weeks after a complete restoration and totaled. Don't drink and drive!!! Paul
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Regarding the 377523 nut highlighted in the attached picture, the MPC says that this is also used in position "A" of the second picture for mounting the molding on the 68 Mustang quarter panel.
Does anyone have an original 68 molding with hardware laying around? If so can you provide close up pictures of the nut?
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Regarding the 377523 nut highlighted in the attached picture, the MPC says that this is also used in position "A" of the second picture for mounting the molding on the 68 Mustang quarter panel.
Does anyone have an original 68 molding with hardware laying around? If so can you provide close up pictures of the nut?
I do not believe that they could use the same hardware, the tail light housing studs are a machine thread and the quarter ornaments studs are pot metal that uses a tin nut that cuts its own thread.
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Thanks Marty. Must be an error in the MPC. There is a lot of conflicting information on the nut I'm looking at...
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I do not believe that they could use the same hardware, the tail light housing studs are a machine thread and the quarter ornaments studs are pot metal that uses a tin nut that cuts its own thread.
If I am interpreting you correctly, the "tin nut" is ONLY on the molding clip within the quarter extension, and those tin nuts do not at all look like the nuts John has pictured ( and I also attached here again)
It would appear that the only detail nailed down at this point is that the "chrome bezel studs" CAN be removed (though they are included as part of the chromed bezel) and are the same studs actually used on both variations (based on discovery within this thread).
At this point in time, if I am following this correctly, I believe the only thing NOT CONFIRMED is when were the non-standard nuts utilized (the 6 used in the attached picture that secure the taillamp housing). In John's image, it looks like the nuts were not the same.
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Must be an error in the MPC. There is a lot of conflicting information on the nut I'm looking at...
Remember, the MPC (Ford Car Parts) is a service document. It reflect replacement items many years after the initial assembly of your Mustang was completed. The MPC is a consolidation of many model years of parts that Ford keeps in inventory and Ford prefers to keep the inventory as small as possible (as a corporate cost savings). The MPC may or may not reflect what is on your car. Use it at your own discretion, or peril.
Jim
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Jim : In this case, both the Assembly Manual and the MPC both show the same nut ; a stamped (PAL type) nut with an 11/32" Hex and a 15/32" flange ("washer") diameter. The problem is that the hex portion on the nuts in John's sample picture appear to be "solid" and not stamped.
Bob
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Bob,
I documented it as such in the spreadsheets. It's an instance of engineering's hardware selection vs. the assembly lines' hardware use vs. Ford service replacement hardware. In this case, I would mark up my copy of the 67 Mustang Electrical Assembly Manual, and the Body Manual too, as I have marked up my 64, 65 and 66 Manuals.
Jim
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The problem is that the hex portion on the nuts in John's sample picture appear to be "solid" and not stamped.
Solid nuts is what I've always found on thousands of the 67's I've seen and in the pictures in my collection except for the odd one here or there but those cars showed evidence of rework and damage repair
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Solid nuts is what I've always found on thousands of the 67's I've seen and in the pictures in my collection except for the odd one here or there but those cars showed evidence of rework and damage repair
Jeff : As this thread may have become somewhat confusing with discussion about "standard" taillight bezels,the Rear Deck Grill (Applique), and molding nuts on 68's, I think a little clarification may be in order.
In the your comment I quoted above, since you noted "...found on thousands of the 67's I've seen...", I assume (?) that you are talking about the nuts on the standard chrome bezel studs ? If so, I don't believe that there is any question, at least in my mind, that these nuts are solid, and in fact, "standard" 8-32 Keps nuts. It also appears that they are, most likely, Hardware Part # 34653-S100, which has a zinc dichromate finish, which would be the same as the finish of the studs.
However, the underlying ("bottom line") question to which we are trying to find an answer, is in regard to the nuts used on the 12 studs when the Optional Rear Deck Grill was installed. The problem here is that both the Assembly Manual and the MPC note that the nut used was Hardware Part # 377523-S100 (which is listed as a stamped steel nut [PAL nut], 8-32, with an 11/32" hex), yet the third picture in John's first Post, a picture of a '67 trunk on a car with a Factory installed Rear Grill, shows a zinc or cad, solid flange nut. stangerdude Posted in his Reply that the solid flange nuts are what he had seen on several original Rear Grill applications. John and I are trying to confirm what nut was really used for the studs when the Rear Grill Option was present. Interestingly, a search through my Ford Standard & Utility Parts Catalogs of 1959,60; 61, 65, 66, 69, and 75 shows no 8-32, solid steel flanged nut. Possibly this was only an Assembly Line item ??
Do you, or anyone reading this, have any pictures of the taillight area(specifically showing the stud nuts inside the trunk, on cars with a known Rear Grill Factory Option ?
Thanks for your help.
Bob
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Jeff : As this thread may have become somewhat confusing with discussion about "standard" taillight bezels,the Rear Deck Grill (Applique), and molding nuts on 68's, I think a little clarification may be in order.
Yes and don't know how 68's got into the discussions. Only takes place when we allow the threads to go astray :)
Do you, or anyone reading this, have any pictures of the taillight area(specifically showing the stud nuts inside the trunk, on cars with a known Rear Grill Factory Option ?
Believe I do and they were posted in an earlier thread about the subject of the rear grill option. Will have to see if they got left over on PhotoBucket or moved over after the purge. Hate when you can picture the picture just can't find it or a copy ::)
John (67gta289) posted pictures of some examples in some of the other threads related to the subject. Such as the one below back in 2010
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=1219.msg6168#msg6168 (http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=1219.msg6168#msg6168)
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Remember, the MPC (Ford Car Parts) is a service document. It reflect replacement items many years after the initial assembly of your Mustang was completed. The MPC is a consolidation of many model years of parts that Ford keeps in inventory and Ford prefers to keep the inventory as small as possible (as a corporate cost savings). The MPC may or may not reflect what is on your car. Use it at your own discretion, or peril.
Jim
Jim, the intent of using the MPC was to identify the use of the same nut in other Ford applications. They are also used on some on 68-69 Fairlane/Torinos so I can see what I can harvest on my next junk yard run.
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It is hard to tell by the picture but those nuts look like the ones used to secure the vented hood bezels, dash pads at the bottom and the AC defrost duct to the dash. Just my experience.
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Yes and don't know how 68's got into the discussions. Only takes place when we allow the threads to go astray :)
Believe I do and they were posted in an earlier thread about the subject of the rear grill option. Will have to see if they got left over on PhotoBucket or moved over after the purge. Hate when you can picture the picture just can't find it or a copy ::)
John (67gta289) posted pictures of some examples in some of the other threads related to the subject. Such as the one below back in 2010
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=1219.msg6168#msg6168 (http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=1219.msg6168#msg6168)
Jeff : The thread you referenced with the link, while I can't open any of the pictures, from what I could see and read, it appears that the discussion is centered around the fasteners for the studs cast into the rear grill panels. There is really no question on them ; they are stamped steel, #10, self-threading, crown nuts (376423-S100). The real question is in regard to the 12 nuts (6 on each side), used on the "studs" (threaded rods) that are used around the taillight openings. These are the same threaded rods that were used on the "standard" taillight chrome bezels, but all indications are that different nuts were used with the rear grill, than were used on the standard bezel rods.
As noted in the current thread, the Assembly Manual calls for 377523-S100 nuts to be used. Per Ford S&UPC, these are 8-32, stamped steel (PAL type) nuts, with an 11/32" hex, and a 15/32" flange diameter. However, The 3rd picture in John's opening Post of this thread appears to show these 12 nuts as being solid and not stamped. This is why I was hoping that you had some pictures of known original Rear Grill Optioned cars from the "trunk side, that would show the nuts around the taillight area.
Hopefully, this will clarify the issue.
Bob
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- (I) don't know how 68's got into the discussions.
The nuts shown as found being used on 67 taillight housings and rear panels in the pictures are the same ones used on 1968 taillights per the 68 Electrical Assembly Manual, 34653-S2 ( 8 ). Service, in this case, is a whole different subject.
Jim
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Jim : I agree that the 34653-S nuts (8-32 Keps nuts) were used on both the 1967 and 1968 Standard Taillight Bezel studs (threaded rods). However, I see no documentation or pictures that shows that they were also used on the 12 studs when the Rear Grill was present. It would seem to make sense that the same nut used on a sheet metal taillight bucket would not be the same nut used on a die cast panel. In addition, the third picture that John Posted in the opening of this thread, of a known original Factory Rear Grill Optioned car, clearly shows that the nuts shown are not the 34653-S nuts.
Where did you find that it is noted, or shown that the 12 nuts to be used on the Rear Grill are the same as the 12 nuts used on the standard bezels ?
Bob
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Jeff : The thread you referenced with the link, while I can't open any of the pictures, from what I could see and read, it appears that the discussion is centered around the fasteners for the studs cast into the rear grill panels. There is really no question on them ; they are stamped steel, #10, self-threading, crown nuts (376423-S100). The real question is in regard to the 12 nuts (6 on each side), used on the "studs" (threaded rods) that are used around the taillight openings. These are the same threaded rods that were used on the "standard" taillight chrome bezels, but all indications are that different nuts were used with the rear grill, than were used on the standard bezel rods.
Thanks for taking the time to bring me up to speed. Once we get allot of posts and long responses in these discussions it easy to miss the tree from the forest - side and extended discussions.
I recall pictures and for the time being have not been able to locate them which is odd. I do recall the stamped steel style for the panel retention to the taillight panel but didn't focus, at the time, on the ones at the tail light housing. Will continue to look
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Jeff : Any luck yet on finding pictures of the taillight area inside of the trunk on 67's with known Factory Rear Grills ?
Just checking.
Bob
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Jeff : Any luck yet on finding pictures of the taillight area inside of the trunk on 67's with known Factory Rear Grills ?
Until that happens, here is a compilation of the thread to date using part numbers with sources.
Jim
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Jim : Thanks for your "Summary Chart". I think we can comfortably say that the "Observed Keps nuts are what were used on the standard taillight bezels. For the Rear Grill Panels, all numbers point to the 8-32 PAL nut. However, with only one original example to compare to, and it not having this same nut, I'd say we need to see some original examples so we can that "Observed" category.
Bob