ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1967 Mustang => Topic started by: orgnl70 on July 21, 2016, 10:42:59 PM
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Early 67 Metuchen built. What would be the the correct finish for the following parts:
Idler Arm mounting bolts, washers and nuts.
Adjusting sleeves, clamps and bolts
Center link
Tie rod end nuts
Pitman arm and nut
Steering box bolts and washers
Thanks in advance
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Early 67 Metuchen built. What would be the the correct finish for the following parts:
Idler Arm mounting bolts, washers and nuts.
Adjusting sleeves, clamps and bolts
Center link
Tie rod end nuts
Pitman arm and nut
Steering box bolts and washers
Thanks in advance
Idler Arm mounting bolts, -zinc phosphate. Washers zinc phosphate ,nuts zinc silver. Adjusting sleeve bare steel ,clamps a little darker spring steel. Nuts and bolts are zinc phosphate . Center link bare cast steel. tie rod end nuts zinc silver. Pitman arm is bare cast steel . Nut is zinc phosphate . Steering box bolts and washers are zinc phosphate. FYI many of these finishes and others are described in the assemblyline manuals. They will save you hours and hours of time if you invest in copies. FYI zinc phosphate = S2 , phosphate +oil
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.............FYI many of these finishes and others are described in the assemblyline manuals. They will save you hours and hours of time if you invest in copies.
And by using the search feature. Much if not all of the questions have been asked before. The search will likely also produce pictures of many of the finishes
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I've searched, but this one seems elusive.
The assy manual doesn't appear to call out the center link idler arm pin/bolt finish, as it is part of the 3304 assy.
I thought it might be heat treated as the rest of the center link was heat treated.
Also, the chassis, bolt-up side of the idler arm itself was heat treated.
Heat treated or not?
I haven't yet cleaned up the machined areas where the tie rod and ram go through. I assume all of them have the shiny, machined surface (as well under the pin).
[on edit -- add center link to first sentence; 2nd edit -- add idler arm itself]
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The assy manual doesn't appear to call out the center link idler arm pin/bolt finish, as it is part of the 3304 assy.
Only hardware items, screws, bolts, washers and nuts, had a finish code (blank was unfinished, which is still a code).
I thought it might be heat treated as the rest of the center link was heat treated.
Heat treated or not?
Those items were hot stamped from rod. At the end of the process, they were dropped into an oil bath, not a real heat treatment, but more to cool the part for handling and give some rust protection.
I haven't yet cleaned up the machined areas where the tie rod and ram go through. I assume all of them have the shiny, machined surface (as well under the pin).
I don't believe any machining was involved other than drilling the mounting holes and the threading of the other end.
So, what do you do?
I don't know, but I would do a light phosphate and oil treatment, primarily to give some surface protection.
RUST IS YOU ENEMY.
Jim (USN trained)
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I thought it might be heat treated as the rest of the center link was heat treated.
Also, the chassis, bolt-up side of the idler arm itself was heat treated.
Heat treated or not?
You can finish them using what ever you choose. End product IMHO would be dark similar to strut rods, spindles and the like. If you go really dark the machined surfaces will contrast a bit too much and "grab" the eye. Not what I think your looking for
I haven't yet cleaned up the machined areas where the tie rod and ram go through. I assume all of them have the shiny, machined surface (as well under the pin).
Yes machined surfaces would be brighter than the surrounding unmachined surface. I typically use gun bluing repair fluid since I can control where it goes and where it isn't applied and hopefully some additional extra work. Choose what is best for you
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Ok, here is the center link and one drag strut.
The yellow paint is exactly as the original had on it.
They have not yet been oiled (Boeshield).
[note to others, the paint is specific to 67 power steering only]
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Ok, here is the center link and one drag strut.
The yellow paint is exactly as the original had on it.
They have not yet been oiled (Boeshield).
[note to others, the paint is specific to 67 power steering only]
The drag link is typically a darker dull steel compared to the strut rod which is typically a lighter shade steel with a slight shine to it.
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This reminds me of the conversation about "The Color Gray!" And its infinite variants.
Thanks, Bob. I like the color of the strut rod after Boeshield and its "shinier" look, so I darkened the center link another shade.
If I remember I'll shoot another pic. Maybe take it outside since shooting in this shop full of fluorescent lights doesn't help determine colors and shades.
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This reminds me of the conversation about "The Color Gray!" And its infinite variants.
IMHO the strut rod (if different in tone or tint) isn't far from the other heat treated parts used as part of the suspension originally. But that's just me :)
Of course we're not looking for a monotone finish - color, tine and tone would have been variables based on many factors including how dirty the quenching oil was that day
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While looking at the center link, it's not a very nicely finished piece. The forging marks are everywhere and the metal itself has pores. It's just a forged piece that doesn't have to look nice to perform its intended duty. Even if finished precisely like a drag strut it can't be as shiny as the much nicer metal finish of the strut.
So yes, the drag strut will look shiny and the center link, not so much.
I think by the time I was done I tried 4 or 5 different finishes/shades on the drag strut, with only 2 or 3 on the center link.
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Here's some samples of "lightly phosphated" 65-66 center links (there were four, one's on my "K" car, the second on 6S1902), strut rods and hood hinges. The hood hinges are dark here but have lightened up over time. The center links were done in 2010, the strut rods and hood hinges in 2012. Don't overdo your parts.
Jim
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Bringing this back as someone remarked about the colors of the tie rod sleeves and clamps on the Facebook Concours forum.
There seems to be a difference of opinion between what's called out here -- sleeve is bare metal, clamps are darker and what Marcus states in his write-up -- the opposite.
His excellent suspension write-up is here:
http://anghelrestorations.com/uploads/3/5/1/2/35122002/65_to_73_suspension_guide_v2.1aa.pdf
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Bringing this back as someone remarked about the colors of the tie rod sleeves and clamps on the Facebook Concours forum.
There seems to be a difference of opinion between what's called out here -- sleeve is bare metal, clamps are darker and what Marcus states in his write-up -- the opposite.
His excellent suspension write-up is here:
http://anghelrestorations.com/uploads/3/5/1/2/35122002/65_to_73_suspension_guide_v2.1aa.pdf
The component pieces, sleeve and clamps, were delivered to the suspension sub-assembly area wrapped in clean cotton towels after being de-greased and washed in detergent - or came in a bucket or wooden box still covered with the oil used in the stamping process. The hardware was phosphated and oiled. Think "dirty". The assembly line workers did not wear tuxedos on the line.
Jim
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Bringing this back as someone remarked about the colors of the tie rod sleeves and clamps on the Facebook Concours forum.
There seems to be a difference of opinion between what's called out here -- sleeve is bare metal, clamps are darker and what Marcus states in his write-up -- the opposite.
Only see the sleeves (maybe I missed a reply ) mentioned in the first two post and the discussion moved on to larger other items.
Of course some of it comes down to what each has experienced or even pictures again (digital details as discussed before). In the Article you attached in some pictures the clamps are the same color as the sleeves, in others the sleeve is darker that the clamps or so it appears. In others the tie rods are brighter/lighter than the sleeve. The article more seems to focus on parts numbers and specifications, which it does do a great job of, rather than part finish comparison.
Allot of this reminds be of the discussions about semi-gloss black and how glossy or flat one finish should be compared to another.
Just me
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Bringing this back as someone remarked about the colors of the tie rod sleeves and clamps on the Facebook Concours forum.
There seems to be a difference of opinion between what's called out here -- sleeve is bare metal, clamps are darker and what Marcus states in his write-up -- the opposite.
His excellent suspension write-up is here:
http://anghelrestorations.com/uploads/3/5/1/2/35122002/65_to_73_suspension_guide_v2.1aa.pdf
Once de rusted and tumbled the clamps can appear the same as the sleeves. In the wild I find original clamps typically slightly darker. The reason I believe is because the clamps are made of a different spring like compared to the steel of the sleeves. If they were made of the same type steel as the sleeves then once compressed they wouldn't spring back when the bolt and nut were loosened . Spring steel is typically a darker color/shade then non. I am sure there is a range of darkness. I have seen a little and also a lot (two words right Jim) :) . I think it is because of the tempering process but others could explain better.That is my opinion based on personal observations . Marcus apparently has different.
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I have seen a little and also a lot (two words right Jim) :) .
Thanks. I used to write procedure manuals for the Air Force and they get "picky" about words and punctuation.
An humorous example:
"In the restaurant, the panda ate shoots and leaves" or,
"In the restaurant, the panda ate, shoots and leaves".
The first sentence depicts a meal, the second depicts an act of violence - all because of a single comma.
Jim
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..."picky" about words and punctuation....
An humorous example:
Jim
(eyeroll instead of eye roll)
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I realize this whole thread is in relation to 67, so I'll start there.
The assembly manual says
- clamp bolt is 304759-S2 || phosphate and lube
- clamp nut is 34443-S7 || Cadmium plate (as noted in the 6 cyl section since V8 is not listed
However, V8 or no, all the cone-style squeeze nuts on the 67 suspension are Cadmium plate.
Jim states in this thread:
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=20084.msg126982#msg126982
That the 66 Shelby nut is S2. Perhaps this leads this finish being thought of as correct for 67-on?
Although for a 68, Jeff notes this finish for the sleeve:
Tie rod adjustment sleeves - natural steel - Yes new steel look - not as dark as tie rods
here http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=7192.msg40595#msg40595
Here is the picture Marcus has for the 67 sleeve, nut and bolt.
I'm not sure how this can be construed as anything other than P&O for nut and bolt, dark sleeve and lighter clamp.
I'm just trying to get the right finish as there appears to be competing viewpoints.
[edit -- it took a bit to construct this post so others came in after Jeff's reply]
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Jim states in this thread:
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=20084.msg126982#msg126982
That the 66 Shelby nut is S2. Perhaps this leads this finish being thought of as correct for 67-on?
I did? I was referring to power steering differences for 64-66 V8s.
Jim
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Sure jumping around between years and such. Added some pictures to the 68 thread. IMHO some or a fair amount of light wash since I've seen the car in person. Nuts are finished differently than the article but we learn things all the time and just updating past articles and posts can be a full time job. Just ask me . Most of us have proven that what we post or write today may be incorrect or out of date quickly not possibly never. No one knows
I'm not sure how this can be construed as anything other than P&O for nut and bolt, dark sleeve and lighter clamp.
Hardening and quench will produce the same look as we've discussed and shown before but given these are small parts can't say which is original IMHO but the focus is on the look rather process. Multiple routes to the same goal
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Idler Arm mounting bolts, -zinc phosphate. Washers zinc phosphate ,nuts zinc silver. Adjusting sleeve bare steel ,clamps a little darker spring steel. Nuts and bolts are zinc phosphate . Center link bare cast steel. tie rod end nuts zinc silver. Pitman arm is bare cast steel . Nut is zinc phosphate . Steering box bolts and washers are zinc phosphate. FYI many of these finishes and others are described in the assemblyline manuals. They will save you hours and hours of time if you invest in copies. FYI zinc phosphate = S2 , phosphate +oil
I was doing another run of P&O and checked the Assy Manual before finally finding this post. Here is what the assy manual says:
Steering box bolts 378331-S100
Steering box D washer 378581-S
Idler Arm bolts 374420-S
Idler Arm D washer 377112-S
Idler Arm nuts Silver.
So yeah, the bolts I took out were P&O (looking) and yet the manual has weirdness.
The manual also says the fasteners for the steering ram bracket are all -S and that can't be right either.
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I was doing another run of P&O and checked the Assy Manual before finally finding this post. Here is what the assy manual says:
Steering box bolts 378331-S100
Steering box D washer 378581-S
Idler Arm bolts 374420-S
Idler Arm D washer 377112-S
Idler Arm nuts Silver.
So yeah, the bolts I took out were P&O (looking) and yet the manual has weirdness.
The manual also says the fasteners for the steering ram bracket are all -S and that can't be right either.
I have only seen S100 (red dye) steering box bolts on 68's .I suppose Ford could have started doing them in later 67 Mustang production (not Shelby).
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The manual also says the fasteners for the steering ram bracket are all -S and that can't be right either.
The use of the "-S" without a number usually meant no (formal) finish as in P&O, zinc, cad etc. It was bare and probably had a (lite ?) coat of oil.
Not being an advocate of rust (I'm former Navy), I give the item a light P&O finish, percentage of phosphoric acid used and time in the hot bath.
Jim
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Sorry, other factors in life are making me a bit annoyed.
My point is that the assembly manual is not the final word as I tend to take Bob's and Jeff's observations in the field over what the manual suggests.
There is no date on the Chassis page that suggests -S100 and the 100 portion of the text is well off line from the -S. It does look to be added later.
The power steering through-frame bolt is the same part number and finish as the idler arm bolts so they have to be the same finish. Coming out of the same bin, no?
So I'll do the steering box, idler and p/s bracket through-fame bolts as a dark P&O. Same with the D washers. Steering box lock washers are bright.
I'm a bit stuck on the lock washers of the p/s bracket (into the squish nuts) as one would think they would be bright. The bolts, as Jim suggested, would be light P&O.