ConcoursMustang Forums
1st Generation 1964 1/2 - 1973 - Questions & general discussions that apply to a specific year => 1967 Mustang => Topic started by: 67gtasanjose on June 17, 2016, 07:17:23 AM
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I am working over my grille area right now and inventorying the hardware, parts & pieces AND another member is currently doing the same thing overseas. The other member (Jereon) has brought up an interesting aspect. The '67 Osborn Assembly Manual has nothing about the grille area noted!
Are we missing something? I know there are other occasions that something I was looking for, I simply missed it or instead of, say the BODY manual, it was in the ELECTRICAL manual.
Anyone out there have these details or can somebody point us in the right direction?
Areas needing engineering numbers and hardware finish codes include:
*Grille Support Braces (3) including attaching hardware to the radiator support & hood latch support
*Grille Wide Molding attaching screws & J clips to the 3 grille lower supports AND to the stone guard AND to the headlight housing extensions AND attaching hardware to the grille screen/mesh.
*Fog Light Braces, attaching screws & J clips
*Horse & Corral plus Fog Light (OR bars) attaching studs & nuts (note: center/top stud looks cut off? different than others)
*Hood Support to Radiator Support and attaching hardware (into the radiator support)
*Thin Grille Molding & attaching spring stud with nuts
*Stone Guard to Headlight Housing Extensions and/or Grille Braces with attaching hardware
*Headlight Housing Extension to Fender attaching studs & Nuts
Looks to us like these details are missing in these manuals. I have a whole lot of original parts & pieces I can document IMAGES of but it would also be nice to know restoration finish codes for these hardware pieces too. Several of my original molding attaching hardware pieces CAN be incorrect since they have been removed and/or replaced in previous repaints. I would not qualify these parts of my inventory as "original", another good reason to source original data.
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That page is missing from the 67 Body Assembly Manual. Use the 68 as it is very close. The main difference is the Pony/Corral and the attaching hardware.
Jim
Sorry for the delay, the picture was on my other computer. The insert depicting the Pony/Corral in the upper Right Hand corner is from the MPC.
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That page is missing from the 67 Body Assembly Manual. Use the 68 as it is very close. The main difference is the Pony/Corral and the attaching hardware.
Jim
Sorry for the delay, the picture was on my other computer. The insert depicting the Pony/Corral in the upper Right Hand corner is from the MPC.
Thanks Jim, this helps a great deal! (I wondered about what was in the '68 OAM)
If you could possibly post a legend for reference of engineering numbers that are the same as a 67 too (probably not much need for the '68 items within this thread), that would help complete the omission of this detail in the '67 Osborn Assembly Manual.
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If you could possibly post a legend for reference of engineering numbers that are the same as a 67 too (probably not much need for the '68 items within this thread), that would help complete the omission of this detail in the '67 Osborn Assembly Manual.
I don't understand what you require. The item numbers in the page I added are the same as those listed in the 67 Body Assembly Manual, page 10 (N7-8105-3), with the exception of the ones for the Pony area.
Jim
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Thanks Richard for the detailed enumeration of all the different parts and Jim for helping us further with the drawing of the 68 manual.
Since I only have the 67 manuals, that page from the 68 is certainly very helpfull.
I will put everything together what I know and will certainly ask for further help and details for the items that I don't know.
Since that page for the grill and pony area is missing for 67, I would think that many people in the future would be glad for having that ;)
I'll keep you all posted,
have a nice weekend,
Jeroen
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Looks to us like these details are missing in these manuals.
That's the nature of these books. The originals, while called "manuals" by Ford, were really just three-ring binders filled with engineering drawings. Drawings were removed and replaced as newer revisions became available, and pages may have been simply removed or gotten lost. There weren't many copies to begin with, and I would venture that no two books ended up with the exact same combination of pages by the time the model year was over.
Additionally, there was a mixture of Xeroxed pages and old-fashioned chemical prints. The Xeroxes hold up OK, but the chemical prints can be badly faded, to the point where the image cannot be recovered. Add fifty years of wear and tear, and you've got a very low probability of having a "complete" book. That's what Osborn had to work with. I'm looking into reproducing the '68 engine manuals I've obtained. As I go through the process I'll share some photos of what originals look like. Here's a sneak peek:
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=13141 (http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=13141)
http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=13177 (http://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=13177)
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I've let this one sit a few weeks now, hoping a '68 owner or somebody with a 68 Manual could help fill in the "blanks" of the images Jim shared earlier in the thread.
Though the pictures give good details of what the hardware LOOKS like, those pictures do not include a LEGEND with engineering information.
It would be nice to add a page to my 67 Osborn Body Manual with such information. I am working on these details at this time and wish to do an "INVENTORY" of my hardware, parts & pieces. It would help to know the hardware finish too, like what was originally phosphate/oil, zinc-dichromate or whatever else may have been used.
Fairly sure the majority of hardware will cross over the 67/68 division line (be the same for both 67 and 68). ...or as noted before, the largest differences being in the grille area with the obvious differences of 67 vs. 68 or GT vs. non-GT or for 68 models only, California Special, HCS etc... Most of us should be capable of sorting out those (rather obvious) differences easily enough (though more discussion could occur in another thread if needed)
Just poking the thread hoping to incite more interest in the finer details NOT noted in our 67 Assembly manuals that I know some of you have in your '68 books, manuals and so forth... ;)
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Richard,
From one of my previous posts on this topic -
I don't understand what you require. The item numbers in the page I added are the same as those listed in the 67 Body Assembly Manual, page 10 (N7-8105-3), with the exception of the ones for the Pony area.
The items in the Pony area came from the MPC. What else do you want?
Jim
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I don't understand what you require. The item numbers in the page I added are the same as those listed in the 67 Body Assembly Manual, page 10 (N7-8105-3), with the exception of the ones for the Pony area.
Jim
Richard,
From one of my previous posts on this topic - The items in the Pony area came from the MPC. What else do you want?
Jim
Missed this reply, I'll look again in the manual (later) and see if anything else is needed.
UPDATED: I hadn't seen this page without the images...should work great! Thanks Jim
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Maybe this question relates to the using of a 68 illustration on a 67 car (since the page is missing)
ITEM "AF", center of the illustration, when matched with the Engineering sheet in the 67 Osborn, item "AF" translates into: 373265-S2 and when you put that number into AMK, it comes back as a '67 Grille Bar Nut".
(AMK basically saying this nut would be item "M" of jwc66k's '67 illustration in top left corner of the image shown earlier in the thread.)
Anyone following me on this detail, or did I loose you?
What I am looking at in "jwc66k's 68 illustration", I would call the retainer, upper wide molding, retains wide molding to the headlight housing, 2 required.(1-each side) The lower two screws (item Q in the illustration) simply screw into the stone guard while the upper ones screw into a retainer. I need a picture of this retainer
Another detail I am trying to pin down...Regarding ITEMS "T" AND "S".
Item "S" on my example is different than the other two item S used on each side. My example had a larger diameter washer built into it than the other two item "S", these are the screws that attach the grille mesh to the wide grille molding. Is this unusual? The other screws on my example fall through item "T" so it makes sense the washer needs to be larger. Unfortunately, I have only ONE of these type screws in my inventory if it is what belongs there.
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Hello Richard,
I am following you ;)
As regarding your question for items 'S' and 'T'.
In attachment picture of my actual grille and stoneguard.
Are those the items your looking for?
Jeroen
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Hello Richard,
I am following you ;)
As regarding your question for items 'S' and 'T'.
In attachment picture of my actual grille and stoneguard.
Are those the items your looking for?
Jeroen
Yes, that answers my 2nd question...That screw going through the grille mesh is like the ONE I have...but I need another 1.
Jereon, your image confims your example matches mine, the screw bolt that passes through the grille mesh, (top position) differs from the other attaching screws of the wide grille molding (at the rear position) but also your image suggests (or confirms) that this difference IS NOT DETAILED IN THE ILLUSTRATION EARLIER PROVIDED. The flanged (washer) area of this screw bolt is larger in diameter and as I already mentioned, I need just ONE of these screws.
AMK & later NOS Ford hardware provided with these wide moldings have all 3 (each grille side, or 6 in total for both wide moldings) as the same screw in every position and though this matches up with the illustration, it does not seem to reflect what was used in production (at least in San Jose at times).
THEN, I still need an answer to my first question about the screw clip (nut) that holds the top of the wide molding to the headlight housing...A picture would be great. Again, this detail seems to deviate from the ('68) illustration posted earlier when using AMK guide to ID it while also using the 1967 Osborn Body Assembly Manual hardware legend (with the 68 illustration)
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ITEM "AF", center of the illustration, when matched with the Engineering sheet in the 67 Osborn, item "AF" translates into: 373265-S2 and when you put that number into AMK, it comes back as a '67 Grille Bar Nut".
(AMK basically saying this nut would be item "M" of jwc66k's '67 illustration in top left corner of the image shown earlier in the thread.)
Anyone following me on this detail, or did I loose you?
Yes, you lost me. Where (or how) did you "put that number into AMK"?
It's been a long time since I worked on this drawing (it's dated 11/24/2002, the 67 Mustang Fastback is still around though), so I don't have a car to refer to. In my 67 Body Manual, items M and AF are both circled (along with item AD) which is an indication that I determined something was not right. I compared the 68 Bill of Materials to the 67 B/M and in the 68 B/M, item M was removed, plus items Ad thru AH (68 B/M) are different or removed.
Jim
A hardware item has two sets of nomenclature, it's actual description (example - a screw) and it's function (example - grill retaining). Any screw might be used, several may fit the function.
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Yes, you lost me. Where (or how) did you "put that number into AMK"?
It's been a long time since I worked on this drawing (it's dated 11/24/2002, the 67 Mustang Fastback is still around though), so I don't have a car to refer to. In my 67 Body Manual, items M and AF are both circled (along with item AD) which is an indication that I determined something was not right. I compared the 68 Bill of Materials to the 67 B/M and in the 68 B/M, item M was removed, plus items Ad thru AH (68 B/M) are different or removed.
Jim
A hardware item has two sets of nomenclature, it's actual description (example - a screw) and it's function (example - grill retaining). Any screw might be used, several may fit the function.
AF in the 67 "Bill of Materials", (instead of my occasional use of "Legend") calls this item in the illustration you provided as a "373265-S2" and an AMK catalog search calls it out as a Nut, Grille Bar, 67 Mustang, while the illustration has AF as a wide grille molding (nut or clip) retainer of sorts. I'm hopeing to find a couple either in my "bag of tricks" (aka spare parts) or in my bags of items I took off when I tore my car apart...either way, a close picture of this item is all I need at this point and if I determine I need a couple, I'll have a picture of what I need.
Clear as mud now? :D
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AF in the 67 "Bill of Materials", (instead of my occasional use of "Legend") calls this item in the illustration you provided as a "373265-S2" and an AMK catalog search calls it out as a Nut, Grille Bar, 67 Mustang,
Clear as mud now? :D
What AMK catalog are you using? I've got the 2005, 2010 and 2014 (their latest and current) AMK catalogs and that part number is not listed.
Again, the terminology you refer to is a "function", not a description. P/N 373265-S2 is a 10-24 stamped hex nut.
Jim
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Hello Richard,
Not quite sure if I understand it correct, but is it so that the wide molding is held in place together with the small trim molding into the head bucket?
I do not know if it is factory correct, but this is how it was done on my car (and not knowing for sure that it was untouched through all those years).
In attachment 2 pictures of the nut and retainer that came of my car.
Jeroen
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What AMK catalog are you using? I've got the 2005, 2010 and 2014 (their latest and current) AMK catalogs and that part number is not listed.
Again, the terminology you refer to is a "function", not a description. P/N 373265-S2 is a 10-24 stamped hex nut.
Jim
Got this online with a search of AMK 373265 and found this:
https://www.amkproducts.com/bulk3.asp?part=B-14006
Strange thing about my search, I looked this same "search" last night at work using a different search engine and this page did not come up first as it does at home on my tablet (iPad).
Hello Richard,
Not quite sure if I understand it correct, but is it so that the wide molding is held in place together with the small trim molding into the head bucket?
I do not know if it is factory correct, but this is how it was done on my car (and not knowing for sure that it was untouched through all those years).
In attachment 2 pictures of the nut and retainer that came of my car.
Jeroen
No, every indication is that a separate screw & nut (possibly a push-nut) was used at the wide molding to the headlight housing. on a 67-68 Mustang. Illustrations seem to confirm that the same screw "Q" (379557-S101) was used on the face edge of this molding. Two of these three "Q" screws (each side, again 6 in total for both sides), thread directly into the stone deflector, these screws originally required a sealant since they are threaded directly into sheet metal. (still talking about the two sscrews positioned parallel with the bumper that are screwed into the stone deflector) The upper screw "Q", threads THROUGH a hole (of the headlight housing) into what is shown as item "AF" (behind the headlight housing/fender extention). I believe item "AF" to be a special, elongated push-nut, not just an ordinary push-nut. If mystery item AF were a "nut", it would not thread the same sheet metal screw ("Q") like the other two, or at least it would have been a different screw used there.(common sense says it would be cross-threaded)
Best "picture" I can aquire with a search of what I suspect item "AF" to be is a 1/8" Pushnut similar to this one found at AMK: http://www.amkproducts.com/bulk3.asp?part=B%2D10600
I am somewhat surprised there have not been other restorers chime in by now on what would be the "norm" for this detail. It is a very easily seen item with the hood open. ???
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Richard the Q screw and the push nut you pictured are normally what I find in that top position.
Marty
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Richard the Q screw and the push nut you pictured are normally what I find in that top position.
Marty
Thanks Marty.
If anyone can picture the original from theirs, that would help too. This could differ during production of the two years for all I know about it so maybe give production details if known about any contributions of information.
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Got this online with a search of AMK 373265 and found this:
https://www.amkproducts.com/bulk3.asp?part=B-14006
The nut shown on the above link is a nut and washer assembly type, the nut moves independent of the washer (like the nut that holds seats to the body). P/N 373265-S in the AMK Guide To Ford Fasteners, page 215, is shown as a one piece stamped nut. I'll leave it up to you to resolve this one.
Jim
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The nut shown on the above link is a nut and washer assembly type, the nut moves independent of the washer (like the nut that holds seats to the body). P/N 373265-S in the AMK Guide To Ford Fasteners, page 215, is shown as a one piece stamped nut. I'll leave it up to you to resolve this one.
Jim
Will post what I have found on mine when I get the chance...These nuts were OK, just need refinished. I was missing a few other things I noted (earlier in thread) when taking apart but was hoping to fill the gaps of the Osborn Manual for others who do not have as much original hardware as I do. I too am missing a few other molding nuts but I think I have several examples of those available.
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Re: Attaching Hardware, Grille Horse & Corral. Seems there should be nuts holding this on (looks as though I have no nuts) Could anybody check their nuts and maybe snap a picture?
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Found these in the 1967 edition of the Ford Body & Collision Parts Catalog, hope they help. John
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Found these in the 1967 edition of the Ford Body & Collision Parts Catalog, hope they help. John
PERFECT!!! That put's the whole thing together and has enough details to fill in several blanks.
My (horse's) nuts are apparently in another sack of parts from when I took the hood latch support out...along with all of the other thin molding parts I haven't seen in a while...Now I know where to go search!
John, If it is possible, can you get another shot of image 1, up a little higher on the page?
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Keep in mind that the four pictures are service type drawings, not assembly line. They may give you a better idea of what goes where but it is not completely accurate. Example, bolt 359662-S was never used on Mustangs. It's a service replacement. Also note the finish code is absent on all hardware items, it's part of the Ford Locator Code, and that several hardware items are shown as obsolete.
Jim
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The page scanned
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The page scanned
8)
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Picture with dimensions from the 1969 Ford Fastener book. Note that this part number was not found in the 1965 or earlier versions that I checked.
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Thanks for "reviving" this old thread, John. I definitely have something to add.
When this thread was "rolling", it bothered me that no one, including me, had sheet 8105-2 of the 1967 Body Assembly Manual. After this thread finally appeared to "stall", with no definitive resolution, I decided to Post a "Wanted Ad" for the missing sheet. Sometime in late June or early July of 2017, I finally received a response from one of our members that he had an original 1967 Body Assembly Manual that did include page 8105-2, which was dated 07/26/66, and noted that it replaced sheet 8105-2 dated 06/27/66. However, he noted that since the book was 11" x 22", he had no way to scan or copy it. I suggested that he go to Office Depot, or similar place in order to get it scanned. After several days, I received 3 scans, each covering about 1/3 of the whole sheet. I pieced all of the sheets together (which actually came out pretty good), and then scanned the finished product as an 11 x 17. According to the date on the final scan in the Folder on my computer, I have attached a copy of 8105-2, as well as a copy of 8105-3 (which gives part and hardware Part Number information as noted on 8105-2.
I either posted this in some similar subsequent thread, or, more likely, forgot to Post it, which is why I was glad to see it "resurrected".
Interestingly, a coupler of years ago, I came across an earlier version of the 1967 Body Assembly Manual. It, like Osborne's, had no page 8105-2 ; or I should say no page like 8105-2. I say this because in this version (which may be the original first version of the Body Assembly Manual, as the pages are only numbered 1, 2, 3, ... , have only a Section 8xxx at the bottom of the pages, and have no dates other than 1967.
Hope this helps fill in at least some of our questions.
Bob
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Nice find Bob- Thanks for the effort
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Take a look at one of my previous posts.
https://www.concoursmustang.com/forum/index.php?topic=16050.msg100539#msg100539
Jim
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Jim : Thanks ! So I didn't forget to Post it after I had pieced it together. Guess your memory is better than mine.
Bob
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Hi-Res scan of the front end page.
I just got my Collision Manual and I scanned all the Mustang pages at 400dpi.
Just because I can...
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Jeff has my "enhanced" version.
Jim
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Look in this forums library in the 67 Mustang section "Grill and Front End Assembly Manual Pages".
Note: I got the original from somebody on this forum but I can't remember who, but I "enhanced" it.
Thanks.
Jim
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Jim : How soon "we" forget. See my Reply # 28 in this thread.
Bob
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How soon "we" forget. See my Reply # 28 in this thread.
I did. I forgot. Sorry. I'll never "forget" again. Now, what were we posting about?
/s
Jim
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Don't know. I can't remember. It must have been about bending your elbow while watching the fruit on your fruit trees grow.
Bob